Jasta 13 Fokker June 1918

[stuwyatt]

Hi Guys,

Been doing some more work on the bear marked Fokker in the line up at Mensil, I looked a many Heraldic Bears and I think it may have looked something like this.I now this is not exactly the same but I am cntinuing to look for others. The other are in the line as well. Unknown, Piel, Bear-unknown, Buchner. They are added to the original profile by Ray Rimell, so i will not be publishing the full profiles as they belong to him.

yours stu

[Gregvan]

Great stuff, Stu !!

As an aside, I previously thought that the D.VII with the six-pointed star might have been flown by Offz Stv Jakob Ledermann, a Jewish pilot who was taken POW on 20 August 1918 - this is what Ed Ferko thought. But as you've pointed out, perhaps he was not yet at the unit when this line-up photo was taken ??

One of my good German friends reminded me that there is a photo of Buechner and Neckel in their swimming clothes on the Dittmann website. There is another showing these two with Grimm, Hetze,Nette and Niethammer all ready for a swim (obviously taken on the same day) in Moeller's "Kampf und Sieg eines Jagdgeschwader" ("Jasta 13 nach erfrischendem Bad"). In both photos Franz Buechner is wearing a white swimming outfit marked with a six-pointed star on the chest !!

Can anyone explain the significance of this star for Buechner (who certainly wasn't Jewish) ? A masonic emblem, perhaps ?? My friend wondered if this might indicate the Buechner first used the six-pointed star on his Fokker D.VII. After all, in another Dittmann photo, Buechner is seen congratulating Neckel, and Neckel sits in a D.VII which seems to bear "Buechner's" checkerboard band !!

Comments, anyone ??

Greg VanWyngarden

[stuwyatt]

Hi Greg,

Interesting points. I would still say that the checkerboard band Fokker is that of Buchner, as it seems to have a leaders pennant attached to the tail. There is another possibility for this Fokker having a leaders pennant and that is that the Fokker with the checkerboard band is that of Ltn Schwarz and that the photo dates prior to 15 June.
Was it that the checkerboard band was continued by Buchner on his later Fokkers as the identification of the leaders plane? While adding his personal werewolf’s head, which alone would not have been as easy to spot in the air. This premise may fit with your suggestion that Buchner was flying the Fokker with the Star of David at the time.

Yours stu

[JoernL]

Hi Stu,

since Greg mentions me in his post it´s about time for me to get involved here now. To begin with, the leonine image used on Büchner´s final O.A.W. -built D.VII was not a werewolf but a lion´s head. Büchner was born in Leipzig, and the Leipzig zoo was famous for breeding lions in captivity since the 1880´s or 1890´s. The lion has also been the "Wappentier" of the city of Leipzig for several centuries, so it is an obvious choice for him.
In spite of his long service, few photos showing personal markings on his fighters are known. His late-production O.A.W. Fokker is well documented, but even his mid-production O.A.W. Fokker (the one he was photographed in front of for his 20. and 30. victories) is mysterious, as I´ve never seen a shot of it showing the fuselage sides.
It has always been fair to assume that the checkerboard band was his marking, but when I saw the Star of David on his swimsuit and combined that to the fact that there was a D.VII with just such a marking serving with Jasta 13 at the time, it did seem likely to me that this was his marking at the time, for whatever reason.
As is so often the case, the absence of records forces us to speculate here. Who knows, maybe photos of his earlier Dr.I or Albatros in Jasta 13 will surface one day and show us his earlier markings. I have seen a poor photo of him taken around March 1918 in front of a triplane with an oblique dark-bordered white fuselage band, but wheter this was his personal mount at the time is questionable.

Now on to Neckel, who apparently changed his marking everytime he changed units. We know that he used the chevron in Jasta 12, but such a marking is not documented for Jasta 13 Fokkers. And we also know that his black and white striped fuselage as c.o. of Jasta 6 was again completely different.
So when I saw the photo of him acutally sitting in the checkerboard-band plane with Büchner congratulating him it just seemed quite probable that it was indeed Neckel´s and not Büchner´s marking AT THE TIME[COLOR=blue]!
I understand your doubts because of the pennant, but we have to keep in mind that at the end of June (to pick a date) Neckel had a score of 18 while Büchner´s stood at just 4. So perhaps Neckel was leading the unit in the air around then???

I don´t even want to speculate about what the marking of Ltn. Schwartz might have been, he only stayed with Jasta 13 for six weeks, and the only photo I know of a plane that´s associated with him shows only unit markings.

So, as I said, the lack of records forces us to make educated guesses by combining what little information we have, which is part of the fun of researching German WWI markings, isn´t itjavascript:emoticon(';)')?

Best regards,

Jörn

[Gregvan]

Thanks, Joern !! You've raised some very interesting points, as I said.

Greg VanWyngarden

[Cigogne]

Greg and JoernL,

Interesting theory about the bathing suits. Personally, I think that the Star of David marked bathing suit is not related at all to the aircraft markings. I think that the swimsuit is marked so coincidentally. Bathing attire styles were a bit natty in those days. (Stripes, symbols, etc.) I think that Büchner (or his mother, girlfriend, etc) must've thought that it was a neat swimsuit! I don't think that that much thought went in to it. The star symbol, whether 5 or 6 pointed is "egal." I don't think much thought was given about it's "semitic" symbolism. Else why would Büchner have worn it, not being Jewish?

Many pilots shared aircraft, especially with aircraft in short supply. Neckel was a pretty hot pilot and perhaps led, using Büchner's aircraft in a Kette, when Büchner wasn't flying. It would be good to know which pilots flew together in which Ketten. Or if combat reports exist for claims, as they do for other pilots, if they exist for Neckel, or Büchner. The aircraft Militär Nummer is often listed with related comments. If only those could be found...

Just some thoughts...

Thanks to you, Greg, Joern, and Stu for your thoughts!

[rammjaeger]

Hello,

I can not solve the problem but wish to add some remarks to the sixpointed star seen on the bath suites and aircraft.

At first we should note that not every sixpointed star or hexagramm is a Star of David and therefore not necessarly pointing to a jewish descent or background.

The hexagramm (I use the German term) was used by people in India, Egypt, Maya, in masonry, astrology, alchemy etc etc.

In Germany the symbol was not only used by Jews or Jewish communities.

For example it was the symbol of the "Bierbrauerei" (brewery of beer)!!!

It is still in use today:
http://www.mitterteich.de/home/einrichtung...verteiler_5.htm (http://www.mitterteich.de/home/einrichtungen/verteiler_1/verteiler_5/body_verteiler_5.htm)


As well the sixpointed star was used to ban bad ghosts. An exhibition on a castle near Büchner´s hometown Leipzig displays old furniture of German farmers. The furniture sometimes displays hexagramms too.

VBR
Rammjaeger

[Gregvan]

Thanks, Cigogne and Rammjaeger, for your comments on the 'hexagramm'. I certainly knew that a six-pointed star was not necessarily associated with Judaism at this time, as there are many examples of its use by various non-Jewish German pilots. As Jon Guttmann once said, "Sometimes a six-pointed star is just a six-pointed star".

Still, it IS a neat looking swim suit !! Hopefully we can sort all of this out someday.

Greg

[pmirl]

On October 9, 1918 Ltn Adolf Auer of Jasta 40 and his Fokker DVII #4043/17 was captured. I have heard that it, too, had a "Star of David" design on it.


Paul

[Cigogne]

Pmirl,

Although this has been brought up before... Auer also was not Jewish, but "Evangelisch Lutherisch"... or Lutheran. Some have thought this was formerly Rosenstein's aircraft, but that hasn't been confirmed. Rosenstein is often shown with his black Fokker D.VII w/ the heart marking on the fuselage.

Happy New Year!

[Rick]

Furthermore. Adolf Auer was later a General in the Luftwaffe. One would hardly expect a Jew to hold this post ;) . R.