Jasta Training Period

[wingedwarrior]

Hi all,

I am trying to determine the 'normal' period an inexperienced pilot would spend at a Jagdschule. I believe that it would depend on the proficiency of the individual, but I would also think that there would be a course outline giving the expected time to accomplish the required tasks. Anyone know if there was such a thing? Any information regarding fighter pilot training will be highly welcomed.

regards

[Immo_Frese]

Originally posted by wingedwarrior@Jan 28 2004, 08:08 PM
[b] Hi all,

I am trying to determine the 'normal' period an inexperienced pilot would spend at a Jagdschule. I believe that it would depend on the proficiency of the individual, but I would also think that there would be a course outline giving the expected time to accomplish the required tasks. Anyone know if there was such a thing? Any information regarding fighter pilot training will be highly welcomed.

regards
Hi Wingedwarrior,

yes, at the beginning, the later Jasta-Pilots had to pass two courses successfully. The first training was at a so called "Kampfeinsitzer-Schule" in Germany. The main task in these courses was to teach the handling of an "D-plane". The C.O. of the school had to judge if the pilot is fit for flying duties in a Jasta. There are a lot of cases where unfit pilots were sent back to the Fliegerabteilungen. The length of the training at the Kampfeinsitzer-Schule depends on the skills of the pupils.

The next step was the Jasta-Schule. Normally the training consists of formation flying and combat tactics. The course was very short. In most cases it was only two weeks and I have read a lot of examples that the stay of the talented guys was even shorter.

In April 1917 there were made some changes by KoGenLuft because of the massive need in new pilots for the newly built Jastas. The training at the Kampfeinsitzer-Schulen was abandoned. At this time the schools in Großenhain and Paderborn were closed and their personnel went to Valenciennes to build up the Jasta-Schule 2 there. From now on the pilots went directly and immediately from the Fliegerabteilungen or the Flying-Schools to the Jasta-Schools, most of them without sufficient training on "D-planes". This had very negative repercussions on the quality of the Jastas and unfortunately the fatal flying accidents at the Jasta Schulen increasesd from this time on dramatically...

Hope this helps a little bit...

Immo

[Barrett]

Would marine pilots attend the same jastaschulen or were there separate schools for naval aviation? If so, where? Thanx to all.

[Cigogne]

Immo,

Jastaschule I was at Valenciennes under Hptm. Martin Zander. Jastaschule II wouldn't be formed until some months later in July, I believe at nearby Nivelle. I've been studying about that recently. Hellmuth Volkmann was the first Führer of Jastaschule II when it was formed. He formerly led the Jastaschule in Warschau.

[Immo_Frese]

Cigogne,

yes, you are right. It was a typo from my side ;)

Immo

[Soderbaum]

Hi

The German Marine Air Force also had some fighter schools for pilots. The best known is probably the Kampeinsitzerschule Langfuhr.

A few Marine pilots attended the Army Jastaschule in early 1917...

:rolleyes:
Gunnar

[Immo_Frese]

Hi Barrett,

that's a tricky question.

The marine-pilots were not under the command of KoGenLuft. Headorganisation was the Reichsmarineamt with the Marineflugchef. Therefore I can't imagine that Marine-officers were trained at Jasta-Schulen.
Responsible for the personnel-supply of the frontline units were:

I.Seeflieger-Abteilung in Kiel (responsible for the Seeflugstationen Alpenrade, Flensburg, Kiel, Warnemünde, Bug and Wyk auf Rügen, Nest and Putzig near Danzig. It were also responsible for the baltic staions in Libau, Windau, Angersee and Papensholm and for the stations in the south like Xanthi, Kawak, St.Stefano, Chanak, Varna, Konstanza and Odessa).

II.Seeflieger-Abteilung in Wilhelmshaven (responsible for the Seeflugstationen in List auf Sylt, Helgoland, Norderney, Wilhelmshaven, Borkum, Zeebrügge and Ostende).

Marine-Landflieger-Abteilung in Johannisthal (responsible for the Marine-landflugstationen in the german homeland like Johannisthal, Scheuen, Barge, Hage, Nordholz, Tondern, Kiel, Seddin and Langfuhr as well as for the Marine-Landflieger-units in Flanders and on the Balkans).

Till 1916 the training of the Marine-pilots was done at Seeflugstationen in Germany. Pilots and Observers got their special training during their frontline duties wthin such a unit.

Since 1917 the pilot training was seperated from the frontline-units. After the peace treaty with Russia in 1917 Germany managed to reform some of the Seeflugstationen which were located at the Baltic Sea. From now on at these schools all the training for Marine-personnel took place. For pilots there were built up a Kampfflieger-Schule and a Torpedoflieger-Schule for example.

Perhaps Gunnar can add some info about the special training for the Marine-Jasta pilots ?

Immo

[Rick]

From my, admitedly small, knowledge of the training of Marine Jasta pilots, it would appear that most attended either the MLFA (Marine Land Flieger Abteilung) at Johannisthal and/or the Kampfeinsitzer Schule at Langfuhr, or both. I get the feeling that perhaps a pilot finished learing to fly at MFLA and then, if selected for fighter status, was sent to Langfuhr for a brief period. Thus the training at Langfuhr would be comparable to the fighter training an Army fighter pilot would receive at the Jastaschule. Just my 2 cents. R.

[wingedwarrior]

Thank you Immo for the detailed information. Was there only two Jastaschules by September 1917 and were these Prussian in origin? I understand that there were Bavarian flight schools as well. Was the primary mission of the Bavarian flying schools to teach basic flight knowledge and ensure trainees can solo fly a two-seater, or did they eventually train their own scout pilots?

regards

[Rick]

WW, This one I can answer. The Bavarian flight schools trained the man to fly. A potential fighter pilot would still pass through one of the two Jastaschulen, before his assignment to a Jasta. R.

[Cigogne]

There were many flying schools, and, judging from the many available photographs they taught many pilots how to fly single-seat aircraft. A long list could be generated.

Both the Bavarian Fliegerschulen and others throughout the other German states/provinces. There was a Jastaschule at Warschau (Warsaw) but it was closed and transferred to the west and became Jastaschule II. The Jastaschulen I und II were more of an advanced combat training school for transition training in advanced tactics by experts pulled off the front line units.

[Barrett]

Immo and Rick: thanx muchly for your contributions, which clarify things considerably. I was a bit uncertain, knowing that a few naval pilots served in Army staffeln and in one case (IIRC) commanded a jasta.

Now I know where to send Ltn. zur See Heinrich von Tillmann for training in "Duel Over Douai" (or whatever we'll call it!)

[Cigogne]

Immo,

Thanks for the breakdown into a list of the naval I.Seeflieger-Abteilung. II. Seeflieger-Abteilung, and Marine Flieger Abteilungen. It is nice to see over what Seeflugstationen they had jurisdiction.

Herzlichen Dank!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Immo:
The second Jastaschule was formed as a result of the Amerika Programme June 1917. Kogenluft also decreed that future Jasta pilots would go directly from the flying school to the Jastaschule and then directly to the new Jastas being organized, rather than going first the Fl.Abt. or Fl.Abt.A for experience over the front. The direct result of this decree was a severe shortage of experience pilots in the 41 new Jastas. This also reflected the low scores of the new Jasta.
Blue skies,
Dan-San