Air raids on sub bases

[Zeppelin]

Among the many interests I have in WW1 aviation, is the subject of anti-submarine warfare. I picked up Find and Destroy which is very helpful as to the overall impact of aviation on sub warfare, but some things are only generally discussed. Another link on the net led me to uboat.net and a section on WW1 sub bases in Flanders. That article (http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=48) briefly mentions attack by enemy aircraft and the use of seaplane escorts for departing u-boats. Can anyone point me toward more information on these raids and escorts? I'm interested in modelling those aircraft.

Many thanks,
Zeppelin

[jempie]

Hi!

I noticed by pure coincidence into Larousse Mensuel Illustré, daily reports, mentioned that on 29th November 1915 before the Belgian coast a submarine was sunk by a Franco-British plane!

This seems to beat on the submarine U11 !
Arrived on 26th November 1915 !

Johan Riheul wrote that the next day (following on 11th December 1915) some Allied sources wrote a submarine was sunk by the Allies...while U11 was indeed missing "since some days"...but the Germans claims are it was due to a mine?

I guess the Allied sources were correct indeed seen the French Larousse from that period dates it on 29th November 1915!
The same day a British hydroplane seems shortly before to have shot down a German hydroplane before the Belgian coast!
Might have been the "escort" plane who was shot down escorting the U11?

VBR

Jempie (from Bruges)

P.S. No details to find on kind of planes,units, and such!
It's just a brief content of major facts!
Same day 33 British planes bombed the airfield of GITS and also an ammunition factory at Lachapelette...
Should need to overlook all such daily reports to figure out if and when they bombed the submarine basis! But they constructed bunkers to shelter their submarines into Bruges port, so bombing the base remained surely without results? (Meanwhile demolished!)
Thta's why they sunk ships into the entrance of Zeebrugge harbour to prevent them for leaving!(Attempt which finally failed in fact! It obstructed only a bit their passage, but they could still leave the port!)
Hundreds of such pages WWI!

Hi!

Forgot to mention that as place where they sunk the submarine was before Middelkerke , thats just beside Ostend harbour!

So it had to be that U11!

VBR

Jempie

[Zeppelin]

Hi Jempie,
I appreciate your information!
I did some searching on U-11 and found multiple sources to clear some of this up. First, it seems the loss of U-11 was in December 1914, a year earlier, but you are correct that it was off Ostend. U-boat.net lists U-ll at: http://www.uboat.net/wwi/boats/index.html?boat=11 . This lists probable cause as a mine. Found on the U-boat losses page for WW1: http://www.geocities.com/ww1thehistory1/GermanSubmarineLosses was similar information, again showing the loss date as December 9 1914. A clear identification of the U-11 was made when its markings were identified on the propellers, check out http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/wrkqa1198.htm . So there seems to be no mention of an allied aircraft attack in this situation, unless it was a mine laid by aircraft. THis seems highly improbable as I do not recall any aircraft modified or capable of this in 1914. I could be wrong, I'm no expert.

Interestingly, U-11 is the feature on a stamp of that year, and you can see it here: http://members.tripod.com/~Vadim_Lapin/germany/np/

Best regards,
Zeppelin

[jempie]

Hi!

It's possible I mistaped the year and it must be 1914 indeed!
However took this Larousse at home to check once if some air attack on Zeebrugge or Brugge was mentioned in it!
I wrote as weel U11 arrived 26th Nov. 1915 while it was indeed into Johan Riheuls text mentioned 1914 ?

Now Johan is back !
Was already a few days in direct contact with him!
Must ask him once to react here!
He is the specialist on this part of history!


VBR

Jempie...

[Regulus]

Jempie,

You give me too much credit on the matter. But thanks ! Sub attacks by plane, well I think the most famous one is by the Seeflugstation Flandern I on the British sub C25.
Concerning air raids on the U-boat bases, especially on the ones of Brugge, Zeebrugge and Oostende, I do have a lot of information, but it is on the other one sided German information concerning damage on subs etc.
To find out more on the bombers who paid 'visits' to our region you should go towards the British sources. Someone like Mike W might know a lot more on the matter.
If you go to the part of aviation art you will also see a few artworks concerning the HB planes at Zeebrugge.
In addition I can mail you a few pics from the Marinekorps Flandern Photo Archive I'm working on.
The planes of the Seeflugstations and those of the Kustenflieger Abteilungen and the Seefrontstaffel were very active over the North Sea in helping the coastal artillery, recon, patrolling with in and outgoing subs etc. For the protection of the airspace it were the Marine Feldjasta's which were doing the job as good as possible.
Just let me know what you want or are looking for in concreto.

Best from Johan

[Zeppelin]

Johan is back! Excellent! We've missed you around here!
Well, my main interest is in learning about aircraft raids on the u-boat bases. As I mentioned above, the recent book on anti-submarine warfare in WW1 fails to discuss the details other than saying they happened. I am interested in what units and aircraft types were involved, from a modeling interest; as well as units and planes that escorted the u-boats.

I am looking forward to seeing your Marinekorps Flandern Photo Archive. Is any of it on-line yet?

My reading on this subject of aircraft vs. u-boats so far that the greatest success was in causing aborted missions or attacks (during WW1). How effective were the air raids on the bases?

Best regards,
Zeppelin

[Regulus]

Hi Zeppelin !

Thanks for your kind words, missed you all and the forum also a lot !

To give you a first example, here's parts of something I discussed with Mike earlier tonight, which should give you an idea on the attacks on Brugge harbour in 1918 :

UB30 left Brugge on the 29th April by Zeebrugge and had to return to Ostend on the 1st of May due to problems with the watertight hull after damages by a bomb at Brugge harbour on the 24th March.
Repairs were done at Ostend (or Zeebrugge, this is not really clear) and she sails out again on the 6th but has to return again due to the same problems on the 8th to Ostend. Only back operational on the 20th of that month.
In the diary of UB30 we found : During a planeattack a bomb went through a U-boat shed and damaged the heck of the ship

I know of damages by bombs after this date :
16 May : UB59 heavily damaged in Dock III, never came operational again. UB59 was at the dock because it had been damaged in an operation by waterbombs on the 5th of May near Cap Gris Nez.
13 August : UC71, probably at Zeebrugge, back operational on the 5th October, the diary of the U-boat says it was attacked by planes before Zeebrugge, and they responded with gun and machinegunfire.
17 on 18 May : Torpedoboat S53 damaged by a planebomb
6 June : Destroyer V69 is damaged by a bomb
12 June : torpedoboat A49 is damaged by a bomb
2 July : UB88 (next operation it did was on the 29th July) and UB110 are hit, floating dock II, a baggermachine and three minelayers (the early A 1 class of torpedoboats)
However ! The diary of UB110 says the sub was attacked on the 27th June near Ostend and damaged on the hull and deck gun by bombs and gunfire. However she was back operational on the 4th of July as she ran out out for an operation near the British east coast.
31 July : V70 destroyer is hit and damaged
29 August : S53 and G91 destroyers have been hit, as was floating dock III, in which UB59 is being repaired which is damaged again.
30 August : torpedoboat A9 sailing from Ostend to Zeebrugge is hit by a bomb, but stays afloat

If we take a look at the early attacks on the harbour, even during 1917 the results were rather ridiculous, and one could ask himself what kind of purpose they had. I have aerial photo's from the docks and surroundings at Brugge, and it is unbelievable how inaccurate some of these bombings were, with impacts hundreds and even thousand of meters away from the target.

Also there were U-boat sheds and... sheds.

Here's a quote from one of my books :

BRUGGE HARBOUR

First of all a number of floating docks were prefabricated in Germany an than brought in pieces to Brugge Harbour where they were constructed. A total of eight big ones and three small ones were delivered each of them having an independent pumping installation. They were to be used not only for the U-boats but also for the torpedo-boats and destroyers.

Floating dock N° 1 had a length of 50 meters by 15 meters
N°2 was 100 meters by 17 meters
N°3 was 100 meters by 23 meters
N°4 was 100 meters by 15 meters
N°5 was identical to N°4
N°6 was 60 meters by 12 meters
N°7 was 100 meters by 20 meters but was still in construction by the end of the war. So was N°8.
The numbers 9, 10 and 11 were much smaller types and were used for the U-boats.

In the Groot Handelsdok (Big Trade dock) came two ‘Kragunterstanden’. These were in fact two enormous roofs of metal and concrete hanging over the water of the dock under which the U-boats had some degree of safety against aerial attacks. Let’s say that they were not strong enough to resist a direct hit.

Facing the canal Brugge-Zeebrugge, the one on the right side was 73 meters long, the one on the left side 200 meters long. Between the two other docks, on the left side of the canal there was some kind of a peninsula in which two large concrete U-boat bunkers were constructed each measuring 70 on 10 meters. But the most important construction was an enormous bunker with 8 compartments called the 8 Blessings by the local population. Construction of it started in 1917 and it was big enough to house 8 of the large UBIII class submarines.

Two very large bunkers were constructed in the harbour area measuring 17 on 26 meters and 26 on 36 meters who served as assembly hall for respectively the sea-mines and the torpedo’s. The small number of doors and windows in it could be protected from air raids by concrete panels of 40 cm thick which ran on small rails. Both bunkers were just next to a real railway.

There were also two underground gallery’s. A first one of 350 meters and a second one of 200 meters.

...

Around these installations stood 13 AA batteries.

Until today there have been discussions between historians if there were yes or no a number of these so called Kragunterstanden along the canal from Brugge to Zeebrugge. And although many have suggested there were a number of them for protection against enemy planes we have never seen any of these of photographs from that time. So it still remains some kind of mystery even today.

ZEEBRUGGE HARBOUR

One should expect very important installations in this harbour as most of the shipping-traffic was coming from this harbour, but that was not the case at all. Of course there were the existing installations on the harbour mole but not much was added to them especially for the U-boats. More value was given here to the protection of the seaplane base on it.

On the eastern side of the mole was also a Kragunterstand. We don’t know it’s measurements but expect it not to be larger than the smallest one at Brugge, 73 meters in total.

In what is now the military port of Zeebrugge there was also a very large concrete U-boat bunker. Although bunker is not the exact word for it. It looked more like a construction of concrete piles with a thick concrete roof over it. No measurements are known but it should have been in the area of 80 by 10 meters.

OOSTENDE HARBOUR

This city always has been trouble concerning it’s history. The people from the city just don’t seem to bother to care, not even a little bit, for their historic documents. Old maps of the harbour are very big curiosities and photo’s are even harder to find. And concerning the installations of the Kaiserliche Marine it was no better…

Fortunately the Belgian government cares more about it’s papers and so we were able to trace back a few things.
Fact is for example that there was constructed a floating dock of 2000 tons. It was in the dock of the former Belgian Navy.

On one side of the dock were the existing workshops of the Belgian navy. On the same side there was also a Kragunterstand, probably not even 50 meters long.

On the other side were constructed two dry-docks that were long enough to have two submarines in them one behind the other.

Protection of the harbour installations was done by the Battery Gross Herzog that could be found at two places in the harbour. The southern part had four 8.8 cm guns, reduced to two by the end of the war. Two other pieces stood closer to the north near the sea. There was also a third location with AA guns more specific also four 8.8 cm guns which listened to the name Friedrich.

It could be very busy in the harbour of Oostende. For example in November 1917 there was the visit of 63 submarines and 36 torpedo-boats for repairs or revision. There were also 55 other vessels visiting the harbour on their way back home or joining their units.


Just to give you an idea....

Best from Johan

Still a bit more on this...

There was a lot of wishfull thinking by pilots concerning attacks on submarines. Many claims were made, but in reality almost none were correct. Also don't expect that the subs were to abort operations they were going to start because of an attack by airplane. A number of pilots had some very bad experiences with attacking ships and submarines, certainly in the early days of the war, and suffered more damage than they were able to give... :wacko:

Subs in WW I were most of the time sunk by other ships (gun fire, Q-ships) and most of times by mines (even their own ones) and later in the war also by depth charges. In the British case a lot of subs were sunk by British ships, many in cases of accidents and collisions :blush:

Of course there were very few exceptions and it always looks good on your résumé to say you bombed and sank a submarine :rolleyes:

Best from Johan

[Zeppelin]

Thank you Johan for all of the information you've been willing to share. I haven't found any books on WW1 naval warfare yet which have that much detail about the uboat support bases.

There is a great deal of information about WW2 and the efforts of the allies to bomb and destroy the u-boat bases, thanks to the interest in bombers and squadrons and u-boats. WW1 uboats have been one of the least covered subjects for WW1 until recently, with Osprey coming out with books on the Kaiser's ships, and the ever increasing range of WW1 aviation. I hope we see more and more on WW1 Naval Aviation and the u-boats.

Thanks as well for your help on uboat.net. I use it as well for a quick refeerence to u-boat activities and fates. Having the addition of WW1 statistics has made it all the better!

It seems you have a ton of sources for the german side of things dealing with the aviation units as well as the uboats. Any chance you'll be writing a book on these subjects, or are you more interested in creating an Internet archive?

Best regards,
Zeppelin

[Regulus]

Hi Zeppelin,

In fact I did write a book on the subject of the Marinekorps Flandern in Dutch in 1996, which was translated in German in 1997, but both are sold out since years and very hard to get.
It was about all the bases in Flanders, the activities of the U-boats, destroyers, torpedoboats, coastal batteries, air units of the German Marinekorps.
Since then I've published a number of books on my own. One photobook on the German Naval Air Units and a second one to come, one on the U-Boot Flottilles Flandern I and II (these were in English and all sold out) and one to come next year, a photobook on Brugge-Zeebrugge with lot's of photo's of the U-boat bunkers and even the plans of a few of these.
My other books were in Dutch and about The (long) Max guns and the aerodrome of Jabbeke and Stalhille.
I'm preparing another one in English about the German bomberunits, but give still a year or so... :) and one on German secret weapons of WW I, at least 3 years from now :(
If you would like some photo's of these U-boat installations at Brugge-Zeebrugge let me know, I'll gladly mail them to you.

Best from Johan :rolleyes:

[Zeppelin]

Besides AA guns for anti-air defense, and floatplanes for sub escorts, were there any fighter squadrons posted in the area for base defense?

Zeppelin

[Regulus]

Yes several ones ! You had the five Marine Feldjasta's which all were in the area, airfields they used were for example : Aartrijke, Koolkerke, Jabbeke-Snellegem, there were the Marine Feldflieger Abteilungen (although they were more busy with other tasks)with airfield use at Mariakerke, Gistel, Vlissegem, Male, Nieuwmunster and of course the Seefrontstaffel Neumunster (Nieuwmunster)
Also let's not forget that a lot of other Jasta's were on diverse airfields in the region such as Jabbeke, Aartrijke, Gistel. This was just a few minutes flying to Brugge and perhaps a quarter to twenty minutes to the other harbours, and from Nieuwmunster it was even a lot less.
There was also mobile AA in the area, which had it's HQ at Stalhille (where there was another aerodrome, used by Schlasta 16)
And let not forget at all the 43 coastal batteries of which the lighter calibres were also used as AA guns, and of which the Max guns of the Deutschland battery (4 x 38 cm had a range for about 40 kilometers and more) at Bredene near Ostend.

Best from Johan