Eduard Lozenge?

[StephenLawson]

Ok Eduard if your listening. When will you get it right? Two types of lozenge 4 and 5 colour for single seat and two seat aircraft. The Eduard issues on their lozenge included in all their Albatros and Fokker aircraft were to say the least psychodelic. Though mind you I have seen worse. But consistantly it has been a series of guesses that have taken the Eduard lozenge through a plethora of colour combinations that are not in line with what we know.

The German lozenge colourations were dealt with back in the 1960's with Ian Huntley and even our own Dan San Abbott. I would like to ask, does Eduard use the colours that they can get? Are the right colours not available or make the decals more expensive? Do these bright florescent colours just sell better? As if German aircraft were not colourful enough?

Though I have to give Eduard credit at least their starting to issue their lozenge decals with precut strips for the rib caps in the lozenge colours.
http://www.eduard.cz/products/pparts/p1107_06b.jpg

[StephenLawson]

This from their Limited edition Pfalz D.IIIa
http://www.eduard.cz/products/pparts/p1105_05b.jpg

[Patrick]

It's a shame that they didn't do a better job researching the colors. Looks like a lot of work went into the design of the decals to ensure that the modeler had many color scheme options.

Are decals from Americal/Gryphon still available? I seem to recall that they are among the very best for color and pattern accuracy, but hard to get. I wrote to their Web site once & they told me that the decals were the product of one person's work, and he was out of town for a month so I should try back in about 5-6 weeks. Never did, but it seemed like he had a very complete catalog.

[Barker]

Well.

On the bright side, they make great kits.

:)

"Jut throw it in there, no one will know the dimfrence."

:wacko:

[StephenLawson]

It's a shame that they didn't do a better job researching the colors. Looks like a lot of work went into the design of the decals to ensure that the modeler had many color scheme options.

Are decals from Americal/Gryphon still available? I seem to recall that they are among the very best for color and pattern accuracy, but hard to get. I wrote to their Web site once & they told me that the decals were the product of one person's work, and he was out of town for a month so I should try back in about 5-6 weeks. Never did, but it seemed like he had a very complete catalog.

Dr. Glen Merrill is the head of the company. Usually he has one or two people working for him. For the best 4 & 5 colour decals try Eagle Strike. In my opinion.

[StephenLawson]

Well.On the bright side, they make great kits. :)
"Just throw it in there, no one will know the dimfrence." :wacko:

Yeah as long as we have Eagle Strike I'm happy. But should a kit be accurate right out of the box? Oh yeah we have had that discussion before.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Patrick:
I find it most interesting that with all that has been published about printed fabrics, that they would get a little closer than what Eduard has come up with. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give it a 1 at best. All the colors are wrong. I gave them a 1 for effort!
There are two Day Upper Camouflage Patterns, the first one was quite dark, and the second one was lighter and the colors simular to the Four Color fabric colors in intensity.
There was only one five color bottom light pattern.
Eduard did not get any of the colors correct.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[otis goodin]

Another thing that most people seem to miss is the direction that lozenge was applied. In most cases, the strips are laid down in alternating directions, as if there was a roll on the leading edge and one on the trailing edge, the fabric was pulled out and laid on the surface then stitched down, etc. The decal makers who print it with the strips laid side by side all have the strips going in the same direction. Study the Robert Mikesh book on the NASM Albatros DV for pictures of how the fabric should be applied. I know there are exceptions to everything, but most photos I've seen indicate that for fabric applied chordwise (north/south so to speak) it was applied in alternating directions.

[otis goodin]

PS. For lozenge decals, I prefer the Eagle Strike in 1/72 and 1/48 scales, although the Americals product is excellent as well. The difference in quality is nil, and I would choose on the basis of colors I preferred or availabilty. For larger scales, (32 and 28) Americals really is the only game in town worth considering (Eagle Strike doesn't make them in that scale) and I can only describe them as stunningly beautiful.

[Ross_Moorhouse]

Rodens loze decal are no better. It is time main stream manufactures did their reseach on this. As we are seeing WWI becoming more popular, it is in the intrest of the manufactures got it right. Both Roden and Eduard.

[Barker]

Both Roden and Eduard.

I know...

What Is That??
:blink:

"All the way to Oz and not an exchange rate too soon."

:wacko:

[SteveS]

Ok Eduard if your listening. When will you get it right?
Do these bright florescent colours just sell better? As if German aircraft were not colourful enough?



Oh Gosh! Where's my sunglasses. Have they ever come even close?

Maybe we should see how these look under a blacklight. :huh:

I always start out trying to use the lozenge that comes in the kit if possible. But it seems that most of the time I'm not satisfied with looks or quality and wind up reaching for the Eagle Strike lozenge anyway. They never let me down.

Salute,
Steve

[Barker]

Oh Gosh! They never let me down.

Salute,
Steve

Used some recent.

Nice.

Four color.

But!!!!!!

A/G unders.

:)

[Frentzen]

[QUOTE=StephenLawson][COLOR=DarkRed]Ok Eduard if your listening. When will you get it right?

From Eduards January 2005 Newsletter discussing their upcoming D.VII:

"The ROYAL CLASS will be released in Summer, with all six versions included, with parts for two complete models and two lozenge decal sheets with newly defined colors."

They also state that the regular issue of the kit will have "newly styled" lozenge, whatever that means.

For what it's worth, I prefer Pegasus lozenge over anything else. The colors seem spot on and they lay down beautifully even without setting solution.

Dan

[Familyman]

[QUOTE=StephenLawson][COLOR=DarkRed]

For what it's worth, I prefer Pegasus lozenge over anything else. The colors seem spot on and they lay down beautifully even without setting solution.

Dan

Me too! But I'm also interested to try Eagle Strike. Any one of you gentlemen tried the both? Are there noteworthy differences?

Personally I'm not too worried about the lozenge colours. I'm quite sure they varied a lot. However, the Eduard decals are far away even from the range of colours I can tolerate. I was rather disappointed, too, when I saw the lozenge decals of the new 1/48 Albatros D.Va Jasta 5 Special Edition pack. The box was some 30 % more expensive that the previous Profipack release of the same kit. For that you should expect some progress in decals at least, shouldn't you?

Mikko

[Ross_Moorhouse]

Write to Eduard and tell them. Some of here have with roden and had very good customer service back. Like the time Alex sent out some corrected Nie.28 decals. Roden also sent out some corrected Se5a lower wings to those that asked. So ask Eduard to correct their decals and see what happens.

They wont come here and read this. You will have top go to them. :)

[Barker]

Me too! But I'm also interested to try Eagle Strike. Any one of you gentlemen tried the both? Are there noteworthy differences?
Mikko
Pegasus is a more thin, delicate 'cal. Not to say "unsatisfactory" - quite the opposite: these were the first ones I ever used and they lay down beautifully, conforming to just about everything. Their thinness is what makes them very good.

Just recently finished two builds using Eagle Strike topside Fours.
One has handcut tapes - always a good test of a sheet, when you think about it, while the other used ES tapes - also good.

A/G underside - probably the thickest of the group.

If thin is what you're after, go Pegasus.
Otherwise, it's degrees of difference...

i.e. I go by color, rather than cal - they all work fine.

[Indelible]

I didn't like the Eagle Strike decals because while the colours were OK (but not great) the inks were so thick that the model had a crazy paved texture, and needed multiple coats of clear and a good rub-down with worn 1200 grade before it looked half decent. Anyway they look too blue (4 colour,1/72 scale) IMHO.

[otis goodin]

Must respectfully disagree with you about the Eagle Strike colors, although I realize this is largely a matter of opinion. I, along with several other modelers, was personally involved in the development of the Eagle Strike lozenge (you can read the credits on the packaging), so I know a lot of thought and research went into those colors. Your comment is the first I have ever heard about the decals being thick. Eagle Strike (part of the Aeromaster group) has a reputation of very thin decals. Maybe the 1/72 scale has something to do with it. I have used Pegasus before and they are very thin, although also very expensive.

[Patrick]

I find it most interesting that with all that has been published about printed fabrics, that they would get a little closer than what Eduard has come up with. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give it a 1 at best. All the colors are wrong. I gave them a 1 for effort!

Dan,

I look at something like this and think -- someone spent hours laboring to produce this product (the decal sheets); how could they make such a mess of something like the colors when there are so many resources available to help them get it right?

It's a mystery . . . :blink:

[Frentzen]

[QUOTE=Frentzen]

Me too! But I'm also interested to try Eagle Strike. Any one of you gentlemen tried the both? Are there noteworthy differences?


Mikko

Besides the cost? I like the Pegasus decals enough to justify the extra expense. Here are some used on my 1/72 D.VIII.

Dan

[Capt. Kit Basher]

That's a very nice D VIII Dan! I like how that shade of yellow seems to compliment the lozenge. Thanks for sharing the pic with us.

Brian da Basher

[Frentzen]

Thanks Brian.

Dan

[buzz1941]

I have to admit that the last time I used Eduard lozenge. it took about three misty coats of Tamiya Smoke before it looked close to right....

[Familyman]

[QUOTE=Familyman]

Besides the cost?
Dan

Yeah! Pegasus is a bit more expensive than Eagle Strike, about 25% per sheet here in Europe. But the Pegasus sheets are rather large. Threre's enough for two Albies for example, even for two Fokker D.VIIs maybe. And the ribbing tapes come along with the sheets. Eagle Strike tapes you have to buy separately. How big are the Eagle Strike sheets?

Mikko

[otis goodin]

[QUOTE=Frentzen]

Yeah! Pegasus is a bit more expensive than Eagle Strike, about 25% per sheet here in Europe. But the Pegasus sheets are rather large. Threre's enough for two Albies for example, even for two Fokker D.VIIs maybe. And the ribbing tapes come along with the sheets. Eagle Strike tapes you have to buy separately. How big are the Eagle Strike sheets?

Mikko
That's a good point about the Pegasus sheets. Having used both I do think you get more lozenge cover with the Pegasus sheets, which may offset the price differential. Including the rib tapes is also significant. I still like the Eagle Strike colors better, particularly for the five color, which has a distinctive blue hue to it that, to me, compares favorably to the 5 color lozenge on the NASM Albatros DV.

[Indelible]

Must respectfully disagree with you about the Eagle Strike colors, although I realize this is largely a matter of opinion. I, along with several other modelers, was personally involved in the development of the Eagle Strike lozenge (you can read the credits on the packaging), so I know a lot of thought and research went into those colors. Your comment is the first I have ever heard about the decals being thick. Eagle Strike (part of the Aeromaster group) has a reputation of very thin decals. Maybe the 1/72 scale has something to do with it. I have used Pegasus before and they are very thin, although also very expensive.

:blush: Otis : Certainly, just my opinion. I looked back into it and indeed in the E.S. bumf yourself and Stephen Lawson (hello!) were mentioned (amongst others) as contributors. Never any intention to 'knock', Just to enjoy the discussion of this aparently endless subject. :) This thread started out lampooning the wild and wacky, now I'm nitpicking a fair product.
And when I went back to it this is what I found;The dark green looks spot on, as do the brown and light green. And the other colour - shades of 'the real mauve' - I could find no consensus on what this colour should be.
Dan San Abbot (hello!) has it as Deep Turquoise/Green but there are numerous pictures in my collection, both artworks and downloaded photos, that have it well into mauve, not at all green, and even on the dark purplish red end of the spectrum, and it was fixed in my imagination by pix of the Memorial Flight Association DVII replica as blue/mauve. Obviously, changing just the one colour has a fundamental effect on the overall effect. If it is turquoise (blue + green) the four colours all have some green in them and produce a muted brown/green effect, very Western Front.
I bet the various contributors to the E.Strike decision making process weren't unanimous on the subject, and that this is the ROGUE COLOUR !
If you have it mauve (blue + red) then the decal came very close. Looking at the reverse of the decal shows it's been printed blue on top of purple, while all the other colours required only one ink each (it's the rogue colour!) If the inks went onto my particular sheets a bit thicker than usual it would account for the colour (blue covering purple too completely) as well as the texture.
I've since put the crosses on the job and they're thicker ! 1/72 is just so small that decals need to be vanishingly thin to not protrude, but then become so fragile howja put them on !
I'd be interested to hear from you guys in the know more about these colours. Mark Miller's (hello!) investigation of 5 col. was great, really revealing, did you finish the 4 colour, Mark ? Ray Rimmel and Dave Roberts showed lots of variation on the theme in the Albatros DVII specials, all grist to the mill !

[otis goodin]

Good points all around. I know for a fact that the Eagle Strike contributors had many different opinions. Of course, we know that lozenge fabric varied by lots, so small variations are certainly OK. None of us were there. We are indeed fortunate to have some good sources for lozenge decals-Pegasus, Americals, Eagle Strike. Copper State Models has produced some that I have used before. Again, all slightly different but generally I think acceptable, unlike the Eduard version. But I give Eduard credit for trying, especially producing rib tapes that simulate strips of the lozenge fabric, something I've suggested to Eagle Strike but so far to no avail. Eduard proves it can be done. I think they will improve their lozenge as they have improved everything else they do. They are a fabulous company and one that some American firms could learn from.

[StephenLawson]

Lets hope they do improve... But it has been thirteen years since their first attempt. Below is their last years edition from kit #8110.
http://www.eduard.cz/products/pparts/p8110_05b.jpg

[Barker]

That yellow would attract AA from miles around....


Holy Colorwheel, Batman - that's some strong camoflage.

:rolleyes:

[John Masters]

Nice build on the Fokker, Dan. Thanks for the view.


From the Factory on the hill,
John

[StephenLawson]

Age has darked thiis set.
http://wwi-cookup.com/albatros/dva/ed148_dva_mg007.jpg

[StephenLawson]

My eyes, MY EYES!!!!!!!AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!
http://wwi-cookup.com/albatros/dva/ed148_dva_mg006.jpg

[John Masters]

Lozenge, circa San Francisco 1967 :D


JDCM

[JonathanS]

Lozenge, circa San Francisco 1967

http://wwi-cookup.com/albatros/dva/ed148_dva_mg006.jpg

Lozenge, circa San Francisco 1967 - somewhere around the corner from Haight Ashbury

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/loz.jpg

:p :D

[Frentzen]

Nice build on the Fokker, Dan. Thanks for the view.


From the Factory on the hill,
John


Thanks John. Now I wish I would have posted a better picture.

Dan

[EricGoedkoop]

I don't think it's a HUGE mystery where the inspiration came from . . . .

http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Ger/Alb_DV/Canberra/chalbd5_01.jpg
http://wwi-cookup.com/albatros/museum/nasm_cr001.jpg

The Australian War Museum and NASM DVa's, of course - both restored in the 60's and both trippy, man.

[StephenLawson]

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NeilE]

Gee whillikers, Eduard make inaccurate lozenge! Well knock me down with a feather!

So do all kit manufacturers that I can see. Roden's efforts have been equally laughable as have Flashback, Renwal, Revell's 'Paint It Yourself System', Airfix's "Well Here's Some Airfix Paint Numbers Maybe They Match" System ecetera, ecetera, ecetera.

Whilst I believe that it should be so that an accurate kit can be made out of the box without resorting to after-market bits (as I have said time and time again despite other commentators here believing it not really that necessary), the inaccuracy of all kit based lozenge has been legion (except for maybe Copper State Models)

What's your point here?

Regards

Neil

[Barker]

ecetera, ecetera, ecetera.
http://www.movieactors.com/wincovers/kingandi.jpeg

one, two, three, and.

Whilst I believe that it should be so that an accurate kit can be made out of the box without resorting to after-market bits
an' we can dig it.

the inaccuracy of all kit based lozenge has been legion (except for maybe Copper State Models)
I side with the Magpie Collector on this one.
"How hard is it?"

What's your point here?
I shan't speak for else, but I like bitching about it!

^_^

.....you may ass swell get them correct.

All the other stuff is fair & accurate - it ain't that difficult!

"Let's get it once right and be done."

:wacko:

[Barker]

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What he said.

"We went with the best information, at the time."

:blink:

[Patrick]

I don't understand -- I have RC Mikesh's original book on the NASM restoration. He spends considerable time discussing the research that went into determining the lozenge colors (they unwrapped sections of padding fabric from the ailerons that had been covered and protected from light & the environment, then examined it under a microscope). This work was done in conjunction with the AWM so that a quantity of the fabric could be hand-silk screened and the costs shared by all. Mikesh provides Munsell color codes for both top & bottom 5-color patterns -- I reproduced these myself on my PC and Mark Miller has also done so on his Web site. The colors in the pics posted to this thread don't look remotely like the ones you get from the Munsell codes. What gives? Are the photographic dyes that far off? I can't believe the NASM or AWM restoration teams would have accepted a silk-screen job that was that far off from the spec.

[StephenLawson]

The man to ask about the AWM is member Colin Owers. Additionaly even though the research may have been similar comparitively speaking, comparing the existing airframes we can see the current photo images on the web show these subjects photo under a strobe flash. Check out Chas Schaedel's book on the Albatros fighter D5390/17 to see their versions in the light of day without a strobe flash.
http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Ger/Alb_DV/Canberra/chalbd5_04.jpg
http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Ger/Alb_DV/Canberra/chalbd5_05.jpg
http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Ger/Alb_DV/Canberra/chalbd5_03.jpg
http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/gal206/ALBTRS.GIF

They used the strobe enhanced images. That is how Eduard has misintrepreted the colours we think they should have gotten right.

[StephenLawson]

Below are my versions on the subjects.

http://www.us-aircraft.com/images/Steve%20Lawson/Lawsonpart2/jasta292.jpg
http://www.us-aircraft.com/images/Steve%20Lawson/Lawsonpart2/jasta291.jpg
http://www.us-aircraft.com/images/Steve%20Lawson/Lawsonpart2/STROPP2.JPG

[StephenLawson]

What is the point of griping about a model company's short comings? It would seem in the recent past the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease? This from a past posting on the Roden wing. So why can't we discuss this? Oh and yes Eduard has been sent this thread.
http://theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17038&page=8&pp=10

"...This is great news for WW1 modellers and Roden as well!

It would have been easy for them to batten down the hatches and leave it as is... They wouldn't have been the first to do this. But hats off to them for giving a damm! - and to those that wrote to them about it too...

Hopefully the Sit Down and Shut Up Brigade can see the virtues of the sometimes squeaky wheel..."

And a bit from this past post.
http://theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17163&page=3&pp=10
"...This does not excuse inconsistent levels of accuracy, poor profiles, and poorly thought out kit engineering. These things can be fixed, if manufacturers have a committment to do so.

A committment to high quality control in pre-production together with a committment to cross referencing can avoid some of the more glaring modelling faux pas' that surface from time to time from manufacturers who should know better.

Manufacturers will also be inclined to correct errors and engineering deficits if they encounter enough consumer feedback that tells them it isn't good enough. By continually accomodating poor kits or kits with deficits, we contribute to a situation where no change is likely to occur. And given the competitive nature of today's industry they will listen if they feel it is in their interests to.... "

[Capt. Kit Basher]

Hear! Hear! Mr. Lawson! I concur completely! If we don't let 'em know how we feel then we can't ever expect 'em to change! And kudos to you sir for another awesome build!

Brian da Basher

[EricGoedkoop]

They used the strobe enhanced images. That is how Eduard has misintrepreted the colours we think they should have gotten right.

I've never been to Australia and I haven't been to the NASM since I was a kid, so I don't know if the pictures match the "real" thing or not. If the photos are that far off, would that suggest that Eduard's research simply hasn't included a look at the actual aeroplanes?

[Patrick]

Stephen, your Albs are gems -- ya just gotta love it whenever you can find a subject with mauve/green camo, lozenge, varnished plywood and bright Jasta colors all on the same plane :D

The larger photos of the AWM Alb you posted really tell the story -- the combination of film dyes and flash with dim ambient light seems to be a perfect recipe for a tourist-grade photo. It's a real shame this stuff became the color chip reference for the decal sheet.

[Ross_Moorhouse]

The AWM Alb has not been on display in a long time. It is at the Trelor Centre in Canberra. They do the restorations and storage there for the items not on display at the AWM.

I don't know that there is any proof that eduard used the AWM Alb as their example for the loze?

[karrart]

Lozenge, circa San Francisco 1967

http://wwi-cookup.com/albatros/dva/ed148_dva_mg006.jpg

Lozenge, circa San Francisco 1967 - somewhere around the corner from Haight Ashbury

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/loz.jpg

:p :D

Last time I saw this thing it was crawling around the wall at a Led Zeppelin concert in Pasadena back in '69
RK
karrart.com