Roden's Box Art For 477/17

[BobPhil]

Friends,

Seeing the new box art for Roden's 1/32 Triplane, 477/17, I got to thinking about those photos of MvR's Triplanes taken at Lechelle in March of 1918. I've seen 127/17,477/17,and 425/17, was 152/17 taken there also?If the photo of 477/17 (box art) was taken at Lechelle, it shows the aircraft only partially red and the Iron crosses being converted to the straight sided ones,127/17 was also shown at Lechelle also only partially painted red,yet, 425/17 also taken at Lechelle was totally red and retained Iron crosses at this time,was this MvR's main crate?or if the all red aircraft with the Iron crosses was 477/17 when and why was the aircraft painted all red yet revert back to the Iron crosses? MvR scored 10 victories with 477/17 and flew it till mid April 1918, was this his main crate till he flew the all red 425/17? and was 425/17 just sitting around Lechelle, not being flown for almost a month?

Just my musings.......Bob....

[Dan_San_Abbott]

My Friend BobPhil:
I shall make some statements, then ask a few questions.
1. Fok.DR.I 152/17 was last flown by MvR on 18 March 1918 It has been reported that it was disassembled and shipped to Berlin to be displayed in the Berlin Zeughaus. Fok. DR.I 152/17 last flew out Avenes-le-Sec. Fok.DR.I 152/17 never flew out of Le Chelle.
2. MvR first scored with Fok.DR.I 477/17 on 24 March 1918, flying from Awoingt Airfield. MvR flew Fok. DR.I 477/17at least on 24 March, 25 March, 26 March, 27 March, 28 March, 2 April,7 April 1918.
3. MvR first scored with Fok.DR.I 127/17 on 27 March 1918 flying out of LeChelle Airflied. Last scored with Fok.DR.I 127/17 on 6 April 1918. Flew Fok.DR.I 127/17 at least 3 times, 27 March, 28 March and 6 April 1918.
4. The first record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 is on 20 April 1918 at Cappy Airfield. The last record is on 21 April 1918 when MvR was shot down. There is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 ever being at any of the previous airfields that MvR flew from.
If Fok.DR.I 425/17 was at Avenes-le-Sec, Awoingt and LeChelle airfields, why did MvR not fly this machine instead of Dr.I 127/17 and Dr.I 477/17?
Or, was Fok.DR.I 425/17 in reserve at Armee Flugpark 2 during this period?
The photographs taken on 26 March 1918, of the over painted Fok.DR.I with white bordered Iron Crosses at Le Chelle Airfield in front of the Bessonneau hangars. How can this machine be Fok.DR.I 425/17? Or is it Fok.DR.I 477/17?
I would very much like to see answers to those questions!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Friends,especially,Dan-San,

The reason why the box art of 477/17 caught my attention was the alterations to the crosses,Iron cross to straight sided, and the lack of further red painting to the aircraft. The all red Dr1 at Lechelle,with the iron crosses was labled as 425/17 on the photos. I know a difference of opinion exists over this aircraft as to 477/17 or 425/17. Getting back to the box art and a photo of 477/17 in these markings, I was wondering why they would paint this aircraft all red and revert back to the Iron crosses when the more recent modification of the crosses was already undertaken. Ideas?

Thanks friends...deep blue skies Dan........Bob

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Bobphil:
In the previous posting, I stated the chronology of Fok.DR.I machines MvR flew and when. The only machines MvR flew in combat at Le Chelle were, Fok.DR.I 127/17 and 477/17. All the photos taken there, were of these two machines. Fok.DR.I 425/17 was somewhere, but there is no record that MvR ever flew Fok. DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918.
The problem is this, there is a set of "English translated" MvR combat reports that gives the coloring of Fok.Dr.I 127/17 and Fok.DR.I 477/17 the same as Fok. Dr.I 152/17. The believe the translations to be correct, I don't, there are some problems with these translations, the form of the dates are in correct as is the format and some of the text. To make matters worse, there is no record of the origin of these translations, who, where, when were these translation made, and where are the originals. I look at them as better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!
To answer you question, both Dr.I 477/17 and 425/17 were painted ALL RED, with the exception of the rudder on Dr.I 477/17 was later painted white on some date after 26 March 1918 when Dr.I 477/17 photographed in front of the Hangar at LeChelle.
Very blue skies to you my friend,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Dan-San,

Thank you for your post, I see the delirium these combat reports can cause( reliable or not), but Dan-san, getting back to 477/17 at Lechelle, there are two photographs of this machine. One is as the Roden box art and the other is the all red iron crossed one. My question is why would they paint 477/17 all red and yet revert back to the iron crosses? The box art (based on a photo taken at Lechelle, shows the aircrat crosses being modified to the straight sided crosses, a more up to date version so why revert to the iron crosses?

As ever...Deep blue skies..........Bob....

[Dan_San_Abbott]

BobPhil:
I can only surmise the answer. The order for the Cross change was issued on 17 March 1918, right at the time of Operation Michael preprarations. Jage Nr.1 was based at Avenes-le-Sec Airfield. MvR was involved in discussions with the Leaders of the all the Jastas under his command.(Northen half of the German 2.Armee.) For instance he borrowed a Fok.Dr.I from Jasta 6 to fly over to Jasta 5 for a discussions with Oblt. Richard Flashar, Gruja 2. The question is why didn't MvR use his own machine?
I think that Fok.Dr.I 477/17 was being painted for him, may have been disassembled? In any event he borrowed a machine. On 18 March, MvR flew Fok.DR.I 152/17. It was reported that on the 18 or 19th it was shipped to Berlin for display in the Zeughaus. During the afternoon of 20 March Jage.Nr.1 moved to Awoingt, near Cambrai. On 21 March 1918 the Battle of France started. It is not known what MvR flew between 21 to 23 March, maybe Fok.DR.I 477/17? On 24 March MvR scored a victory, his 67th. On 25 March, again flying Fok.DR.I 477/17, MvR scored his 68th victory. On the 26 of March, Jage.Nr.1 moved to Lechelle Airfield on parked his Fok.DR.I 477/17 in front of the end Bessoneau hangar, withthe rest of the machines lined up in front of the hangars. On this date, 26 March 1918, and a couple of days more, some German photographer took many pictures of Jage.Nr.1. On the 26th he took the two shots of MvR's all dark red Fok.Dr.I 477/17. In subsquent photos the crosses were changed to the balken kreuze.
If you look at the panarama photo,(26 March 1918) in the foreground, Jasta 6 Triplanes have mixed crosses. The change had to be completed no later than 4 April 1918 as required by Idflieg.
Very blue skies my good friend,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Dan-San,


Again, thank you for your responce. So, although 477/17 was undergoing cross modification, (before being painted all red with iron crosses) they disregarded the modifications and reverted to the older style cross while painting 477/17 red. Well it seems strange to me that they would do that, any last opinion Dan-san?

P.S. that little project you so very kindly helped me with will be up and ready for Dayton, I believe I'll own the only one and wouldn't that make a nice impact on all?

As Always.....Deep Blue Skies.......Bob

[Dan_San_Abbott]

BobPhil:
Sad to say I would be able to make it to Dayton and the OTF Meeting in Seattle. I chose to go to Seattle to OTF meeting. Because of the New Museum. I have seen the AF Museum at Dayton. Now if some of my plans work out, my future finances would let attend both in style.
Bluest skies to you my friend.
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

Bobphil:
Fok.DR.I 425/17 was somewhere, but there is no record that MvR ever flew Fok. DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918.
Very blue skies to you my friend,
Dan-San

Dan, as you say 425/17 had to be somewhere, and the evidence of the crosses being altered to the new forms twice with Red and white suggest that it was being used or held in reserve for MvR. This is a very interesting thread and does lend some suggestion that the LaChelle bird in overall Red is indeed 425/17 in spite of the records. Just my Humble Opinion.
RAGIII
PS. Although the pics described in the beginning of this thread are captioned 477/17, do any actually show the Number?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RagsIII:
There are no known records to establish that Fok.DR.I 425/17 was EVER at Le Chelle airfield. However, MvR's combat reports absolutely establish that Fok.DR.I 477 WAS at LeChelle airfield.
The photographs of the Fok.DR.I 477/17 in front of the end hangar, painted all red with black Iron Crosses, edged in white, indicates this machine was painted before 17 March 1918, when the Idflieg directive was issued to change the crosses to the straight balken cross. My intuition tells me that MvR was notified sometime before 18 March 1918,that Fok.DR.I 152/18 was going to be sent to Berlin on 18 March 1918, and he had Fok.DR.I 477/17 prepared for him and had it painted ALL red, around or about, 10 March 1918, This event occurred while at Avenes-le-Sec airfield. This was done so that he would be able to use this machine when Fok.DR.I 152/17 was shipped to Berlin. This is a surmized!
There are no known records that Fok.DR.I 425/17 WAS EVER at Avenes-le-Sec, Awoingt or LeChelle airfields.
The ONLY record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 was at Cappy Airfield from 20 April 1918. However, the fact remains that the machine was painted all red with a white rudder at sometime prior to 20 April 1918. Allowing one week for painting, Fok.DR.I 425/17 was selected on or about 13 April 1918 for MvR to be painted all red.
All the photographs of the all red Fok.DR.I at Le Chelle airfield were in FACT Fok.DR.I 477/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[spacecrow]

The consensus seems to be moving toward 477 as the Red Triplane at Lechelle.

Now, the photo of a Red Triplane with two armed guards, is that 425? The second question, the appearance of 152 in the museum matches that of an apparently all red triplane in an outdoor photo of indeterminate date. White paint is peeling off the side cross to reveal the earlier cross style. So, would this not indicate 152 was painted all red prior to shipment back to Germany?

[RAGIII]

I still have questions about the reduction of the Crosses on 425/17 and 477/17.
1. If the pictures commonly identified as 477/17 with the straight sided crosses are in fact 477/17, why a retrograde to Iron crosses? I could accept a replacement wing, etc. but the whole thing doesen't seem likely??? First question in this thread still seems unanswered.
2. The remains of the crosses taken from 425/17 clearly show three stages of markings, Original Iron crosses, then the wide type(changed with Red, not Fokker Green), and finally the final form, again reduced with Red. This would indicate,to me, a longer than 1 week period? Location not considered, what sense does the chronology of these markings make? Still torn between the (2) theories of 477/17 and 425/17
RAGIII :D

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RagIII:
During the period in time prior to 21 March 1918, MvR was busy coordinating field operations with all the Jasta under his command in Jagdraum Nord of the German 2.Armee, Gruja 2, Jasta 5 and 46.
I believe he was told that Fok.Dr.I 152/17 would be dismantled after operations on the 18 March 1918 and shipped to Berlin. (It was NOT painted all red at that time.) And he then selected another machine, Fok.DR.I 477/17 and most likely took it over before 17 March 1918,(Supposition, not a fact.) while at Avenes-le-Sec airfield. When he took it over some time it was completely painted red with black iron crosses edged in white, This was most likely prior to cross change directive of 17 March 1918. Apparently no effort was made to change the crosses on Dr,I 477/17 until after the move to LeChelle Airfield.
On 17 March 1916, Idflieg issued a directive that instructed the Iron Crosses be changed to the balken (beam) cross. Further it directed the change to be completed by 4 April 1918.
On 20 March 1918, Jage Nr1 moved to Awoingt Airfield.
On 24 March 1918, MvR scored his 67 victory flying Fok.DR.I 477/18.
On 25 March 1918, MvR, flying Fok.DR.I 477/17 scored his 68th victory.
On 26 March 1918, Jage Nr.1 moved to Lechelle Airfield.
At this date Fok.DR.I 477/17 still had the Iron Crosses. Component Jasta were in the process of making the change to the balken cross.
Idflieg directed the change would be completed by 4 April 1918.
At some date prior to 12 April 1918,(move to Cappy Airfield.)while still at LeChelle, the crosses on Fok.Dr.I 477/17 were changed to the balken cross. Lots of undated lineup photos Fok.DR.I477/17 with the balken crosses.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[topgun56]

Knowing the military.....I will get it changed !!! When I have time.

And the pilot....MvR no doubt had a favorite plane.....He would want that fav. a/c whether the mech had changed the crosses or not....and might even take the a/c with only part of the changes.

[RAGIII]

Knowing the military.....I will get it changed !!! When I have time.

And the pilot....MvR no doubt had a favorite plane.....He would want that fav. a/c whether the mech had changed the crosses or not....and might even take the a/c with only part of the changes.

Let me try one more time. The question has never been when the crosses were changed! I am familiar with the gradual process described by Dan . The question is that a Triplane identified as 477/17 appears in standard streaked camo, with (perhaps) a Red upper wing, upper surface of tail, and the usual Cowling and struts. Some of the crosses have had the "Process" of changing to Balkan style begun. The question is if the crosses had been altered while the aircraft(477/17) was still predominantly streaked camo, how did 477/17 end up overall Red with Iron Crosses? It seems to me that 1 of these 2 is not 477/17. I hope this clarifies my question, and continues a good discussion.
RAGIII

[Intrepid]

Let me try one more time. The question has never been when the crosses were changed! I am familiar with the gradual process described by Dan . The question is that a Triplane identified as 477/17 appears in standard streaked camo, with (perhaps) a Red upper wing, upper surface of tail, and the usual Cowling and struts. Some of the crosses have had the "Process" of changing to Balkan style begun. The question is if the crosses had been altered while the aircraft(477/17) was still predominantly streaked camo, how did 477/17 end up overall Red with Iron Crosses? It seems to me that 1 of these 2 is not 477/17. I hope this clarifies my question, and continues a good discussion.
RAGIII

A very good question Rag III. Looking forward to the answer.

Various sources ( Ferko, Merrill ) have 152/17 going to Jasta 5. Ferko noting Mai flew it at least once.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RagIII:
I now understand your question. The photo you refer to, is in "THE FOKKER TRIPLANE" by Alex Imrie, page65, photo 95. Alex is not sure on the he qualifies his statement with"almost". It is not Fok.Dr.477/17. Paul Leamon, in his book, "Fokker Dr.I Triplane", identifies this plane in the same photo on page 155 as Fok.DR.I 486/17!
In Osprey/ AIRWAR 17, "GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS, June 1917-1918", pages 12 and 13. To the right of "observer" is the rear view of Fok.DR.I 486/17, with Iron Crosses on white fields and the upper wing is in streaked camouflage, it is not painted red as claimed by Mr Imrie. That piece of evidence precludes it being Fok.DR.I 477/17. Fok.DR.I 477/17 was painted all red before 24 March 1918 when MvR scored his 67th victory. Note the light streaked area to the left of the right wing cross. In the far background, to the immediate left of the "Observer" is the all red Fok.DR.I 477/17. And most importantly, Mr.Imrie has provided a date when this photograph was taken at Le Chelle, 26 March 1918! I hope this answers your question about the cross and when it was what form.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

RagIII:
I now understand your question. The photo you refer to, is in "THE FOKKER TRIPLANE" by Alex Imrie, page65, photo 95. Alex is not sure on the he qualifies his statement with"almost". It is not Fok.Dr.477/17. Paul Leamon, in his book, "Fokker Dr.I Triplane", identifies this plane in the same photo on page 155 as Fok.DR.I 486/17!
In Osprey/ AIRWAR 17, "GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS, June 1917-1918", pages 12 and 13. To the right of "observer" is the rear view of Fok.DR.I 486/17, with Iron Crosses on white fields and the upper wing is in streaked camouflage, it is not painted red as claimed by Mr Imrie. That piece of evidence precludes it being Fok.DR.I 477/17. Fok.DR.I 477/17 was painted all red before 24 March 1918 when MvR scored his 67th victory. Note the light streaked area to the left of the right wing cross. In the far background, to the immediate left of the "Observer" is the all red Fok.DR.I 477/17. And most importantly, Mr.Imrie has provided a date when this photograph was taken at Le Chelle, 26 March 1918! I hope this answers your question about the cross and when it was what form.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

I believe that does go a long way in answering the question. What it means is that the original question as to the Roden Box art accuracy and decals would be No" providing Mr. Leahman is correct on the service number. Thanks,
RAGIII

[buzz1941]

The aircraft pictured as supposedly 477 -- could it have been partially marked in red as shown but not flown by MvR?

I note that there is little tonal difference under the bottom wing tween the "turquoise" and the area around the crosses. CDL instead of white?

[RAGIII]

The aircraft pictured as supposedly 477 -- could it have been partially marked in red as shown but not flown by MvR?

I note that there is little tonal difference under the bottom wing tween the "turquoise" and the area around the crosses. CDL instead of white?


I believe DSA has done a lot in answering the questions posted in this thread, and as always his answers and opinions are appreciated! I would be remiss if I didn't mention that those other Historians mentioned,Alex Imrie, Ed Ferko, Greg Van Wyngarden etc. do have opposing theories ,that they are just as convinced are correct! In answer to your question some think the Aircraft with the guards is 425/17, as well as the earlier Iron cross marked all Red tripe. Others, DSA included say 477/17. About all you can do is study the written references,( there are other threads here that discuss the theories),study the pictures, and come to your own conclusions. I do not think anyone is willing to say that they are 100% certain? Just that their research, supported by these facts suggest this result. WE WILL NEVER BE 100% sure! IMHO,
RAGIII

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGIII:
I am totally convinced in what I have related to you is the thruth and is correct to a certainty! The others have not presented ANY countering information on the validity of their assertions that the all red Fok.DR.I at Lechelle is Fok.DR.I 425/17. There has been a noticable absence to counter wha I have stated are the facts. The fact is they don't have a basis from which to start. Of interest, all three previously believed it was Fok.DR.I 477/17. All three believe there was only one all red triplane, Dr/I 425/17.
The photos clearly show there were two all red triplaned, Dr.I 477/17 and 425/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

RAGIII:
I am totally convinced in what I have related to you is the thruth and is correct to a certainty! The others have not presented ANY countering information on the validity of their assertions that the all red Fok.DR.I at Lechelle is Fok.DR.I 425/17. There has been a noticable absence to counter wha I have stated are the facts. The fact is they don't have a basis from which to start. Of interest, all three previously believed it was Fok.DR.I 477/17. All three believe there was only one all red triplane, Dr/I 425/17.
The photos clearly show there were two all red triplaned, Dr.I 477/17 and 425/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan, no challenge or insult intended! I tend to lean towards your conclusions on this. If at times I seem to push, it is only to make sure that those asking, myself included ,are presented with as much info as possible. As a serious Historian it is you that is Fostering the Historians of the next generation. I guess I don't want to see anyone in the future accept something just because it was what DSA, Alex Imrie or whomever said. If you had accepted what was determined to be correct 15 to 30 years ago, all Albatros DIII wings would still be Mauve and Green , and a lot of very important information would not have been discovered. :D JMHO,
RAGIII

[BobPhil]

Dear Dan-san'

Although all these captioned photos of 477/17,152/17,and 425/17 still are more about who does the " captioning", I knew you, Dan, would Clear The Bases! and leave no doubt that you still Lead The League!

Deep Blue Skies...........Bob