SSW D III/IV Ply staining - Dan-San, views?

[Rowan Broadbent]

Given that Dan has poured cold water on the idea of dark stained Albatros fuselages - if I recall correctly he put the dark appearance down to orthochromatic films portrayal of yellow- what of the SSW fighters?

Since publication of Windsock Datafile 29 in 1991 (I think), received wisdom has these in dark stained ply cladding. I have been giving the photos in the booklet another coat of looking at, and it occurred that the interpretation of these could also be suspect if Ortho film was used.

Is there any evidence aside from photographic interpretation, which confirms the dark stained finish?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Rowan Broadbent:
Get the SSW D.III-D.IV DATAFILE 29. I will refer you to some photo that support the premise that the fuselages were only shellacked? and varnished.
Page 7, bottom photo.
page 12, both photos.
Page 26, middle and bottom photos.
Page 30, both photos.
Page 32, middle photo.
Page33, bottom photo.
I put a question mark after 'shellacked' in the above sentence for a question, the question is: Did SSW use yellow shellac in the initial sealing of the plywood? The color of the fuselage in most photographs is very dark, which gives the impression that the fuselage is stained. The two photos on page 30and page 32, absolutely show the fuselage was not stained.
I do not believe SSW stained the fuselages brown, I believe the dark color is the orthochromatic film, with the possibility that SSW used yellow shellac to seal the plywood in preparation for the varnish coats.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Rowan Broadbent]

reference to page 7. The photo at the bottom of page 12 of 1626/18 also seems to indicate that the colour of the cowling and fuselage could well be the same, as they have a similar tone. Possible overall painting of the fuselage?

The photo at the bottom of page 29 is captioned as a D IV of 2 Marine Feld Jagdstaffel. The nose and wheel discs of these units are stated elsewhere to have been yellow and the outer discs certainly look to have been painted (the inner discs remaining in lozenge). If that is the case in this picture these areas show as a "yellow" tone and the light prop laminations as an equally appropriate yellow tone - indicating that ortho film was not used for this shot - however the fuselage does look dark - especially if the mid fuselage band was also yellow.

Any thoughts?

Rowan

[greenknight]

In reference to the above remarks regarding the prop laminations I found this photo interesting:

http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive/w/images/SSW_D3.jpg

At first glance the fuselage color appears to be more consistent with the dark prop laminations, but I'm keeping an open mind. This looks like it could be a factory-fresh airplane. Any comments welcome.

[Rowan Broadbent]

that my point about the Marine Feld Jasta yellow is a fair assumption.

So the dark stained fuselage question is at the very least, still open.

It would be most useful if there was some documentary evidence, one way or another, such as works instructions. I have no idea how one would go about searching for these - perhaps direct from Siemens but from what I have read elsewhere they do not seem to be very responsive to queries. Does anyone have any info on this question?

Rowan

[greenknight]

Rowan,

I don't know if this is a useful lead or not, but I seem to remember that the Journal Flight published an article in 1919 or so on a captured or surrendered S-S fighter. If my memory of such an article is correct, I wonder if it had any comments on the finish.

I'm sure that others are much more familiar with what's out there in the literature on the Siemens-Schuckert. Maybe someone can set me straight about this reference.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Greenknight:
That is a good thought, I will go through my stuff and see what I can find. The French did a review of the SSW D.III and D.IV. I'll check that out.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Rowan Broadbent]

Hope you can find the report - it may well help, although other allied reports on colours have been a bit variable in their accuracy/usefulness.

Rowan

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Rowan Broadbent:
I have gone through the data I have and I could not find anything that yielded how the fuselage. I don't have the complete French report on the SSW D.III and D.IV. just the drawings. So I came up with a zero! I wonder If Dick Bennett has the French Report? I'll contact him.
Blue skies,
Dan-San.

[Rowan Broadbent]

Do you have a view on my observation re the Marine Feld Jasta colours? The tone in the photo I mentioned does look like yellow to me.

I'm really pleased that you are folowing up the French report - might be interesting!

Rowan

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Rowan Broadbent:
I agree, at least, the spinner, cowlings, fuselage band and wheel covers were painted yellow. I also think the elevators and rudder were also painted yellow. However, I can't see if the elevator has the two black stripes to signify the 2 MF Jasta.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[greenknight]

Mr. Abbott,

In the meantime I turned up Mr. Bennett's article in WWI Aero #123 written regarding the research he did for his scale drawings of the early D.III which are also presented in that issue. I believe you are cited as a resource in that article partly in connection with some color information; I think a circa 1920 Japanese book of color paintings of WWI aircraft in is referenced.

I believe Mr. Bennett indicated a dark color fuselage on the version of the drawings presented. I don't have the magazine in front of me know, but can look up the exact wording. I think WWI Aero #123 came out in 1989, and it is my understanding that Mr. Bennett's research into the SSW fighters was an ongoing project.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Greenknight:
Thanks for the whack on the side of my head. I had forgotten all about those colored drawings from the Japanese book. It definetly shows brown staining on the fuselage. That that care of that subject. However, there are those I pointed out in the DATAFILE that do not look like they were stained???
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BLOWHARD]

Just to add more speculation...
Does anyone know what wood was used? Some woods, even though they start out light blonde when unfinished, will appear much richer and deeper after they are varnished or shellacked. It could be just as likely that the wood isn't stained, but finished with a clear yellow or red varnish and "deepened" rather than darkened? The wood, although no darker than the yellow MFJ markings, appears darker in the photos because of it's depth rather than it's actual color?
If you've ever noticed how maple will look flat and lifeless before finishing and how it picks up the light in it's figure after a plain oil finish is applied, you'll know what I mean.
Then again, what about something like the copal varnish used on Sopwith Camels?
The idea of a wood stain seems odd as I've always thought of it as a cosmetic treatment. Just a thought, I could be VERY far off base. :blush:

[Rowan Broadbent]

was, I think, Birch, a light wood which when treated with the glues and phenols of the time and subsequently coated with the yellowish varnish became a fairly bright yellow. Given that later training aircraft were painted yellow for high visibility, the idea of staining was more to do with camouflage than "cosmetics".

I think there has been quite a lot of research done into this area and others will know much more than I!

Rowan

[BLOWHARD]

Birtch can even drift to a medium pink-ish brown without stain, depending on the variety.
The reason I asked about the wood is that I see no grain or figure in the printed photos. Some have streaks showing but they look more like weathering or brush strokes as they cross panels evenly. Of course Dan, or someone else who has the actual photos to study might see the grain or figure. Is grain or figure is visible on the D.III/IV ply panels? It visible on other planes like the Albatros, even those with the dark looking fuselages.
If it is a stain, varnish or shellack, perhaps it was more opaque that normally used?

Another thought that comes to mind after reading Coulours and Markings section in the Datafile-
...the stained wood appears so dark that the usual black serials and weight stencil data is virtually impossible to distinguish.
Could this be a hint that it just appears darker as it's been suggested? Would it be reasonable to paint black stenciling on a very dark fuselage? Of course they may have done just that, but it's something to think of at least.