Biggest Dogfight

[Barrett]

What was the biggest dogfight of TGW?

It's been demonstrated to my satisfaction that Barker's VC episode did not/could not have involved the 60-some EA that were part & parcel of The Legend for so many decades.

There's an excellent chance that the greatest furball(s) of all time occurred in the obscure Nohoman (Khalkin Gol) feud betwixt Russia and Japan in 1939. At least four occasions involved 90+ combatants and eight or more others involved 50+. Both sides overclaimed enormously, but that's Situation Normal.

Yes, there were far greater numbers involved over NW Europe in WW Deuce, but 1000-bomber raids prompted engagements strung out over a couple hundred miles or so. Probably the greatest jet-age hassles were over the Bekaa Valley in '82, but I've never seen a head count.

[Gregvan]

Hi Barrett,

One candidate would be what the Germans called "The Air Battle of Le Cateau", on this date. It is unlikely that precise numbers of aircraft involved can now be determined, but at least one of the Brits involved felt there was over 100. You can read all about it in the first chapter of Kilduff's book The Red Baron Combat Wing.

The RAF's 22nd (Army) Wing launched DH4 bombers of No 5 Naval Sqn to bomb Busigny, partially in an attempt to "clear the enemy right out of the sky" as Flight Commander C P O Bartlett put it. When they arrived over Busigny they were to be joined by 12 Camels of 54 Sqn at 15,000 ft and 18 SE5's of No 84 Sqn at16,000 ft, plus Brisfits from the 13th Wing's No 11 Sqn. They were intercepted by 30 fighters (Fokker Tripes from Jastas 6 and 11, and Pfalz and Albs from Jasta 10) from JG I, including (yes, here we go again) MvR in Dr.I 152/17. Aircraft from nearby Jagdgruppe 2 (Jastas 5 and 46), Jagdgruppe 9 (Jastas 3,37, 54 and 56) and Jagdgruppe 10 (Bavarian Jastas 16 and 34) also were pulled into the melee, but there's no telling exactly how many. Nine British aircraft were downed, all successfully claimed by JG I, but other Jastas put in their own competing claims as well. The brother of James T B McCudden, 2/Lt John A McCudden of 84 Sqn, was killed in this fight. Flieger Rudolf Ihde of Jasta 10 and Ltn d R Franz Riedle of Jasta 16b were both killed as well.

The next day Bartlett wrote: "This must have been the greatest aerial battle of the war so far, a total of nearly 100 aircraft engaged...Undoubtedly the Germans accepted yesterday's challenge and concentrated their forces, including Richthofen's startlingly coloured 'Circus', with the idea of annihilating us, but they suffered more than we did (sic) despite the enormous tactical advantage of fighting many miles behind their own lines. Many of them were really full out and put up a good show, particularly the Fokker Triplanes."

Later, during 'Kaiserschlacht', there would be more gigantic battles, and some of the large formations of Trenchard's Independent Air Force were sometimes met by large formations of Jasta and Kest fighters. Some of the greatest aerial carnage of the war happened on 8 August 1918 ("The Black Day of the German Army") when the Jasta pilots piled up a great amount of victories, but figuring out exactly how many aircraft might have been involved in one particular "dogfight" is beyond my research skills.

Greg

[stephen]

That may depend on what one calls a dogfight, because what many of these were was a string of independent engagements. R W Bradford did a painting of Mel Alexander's Black Prince Triplane some years ago for the National Science and Technology Museum of Ottowa (the incident depicted occured in July of '17). Mel later told me that the "sky was lousy with Huns" that day, and that for more than half an hour he would simply wander from one engagement to the next. There were small dogfights in every direction as far as he could see; he had no idea how many planes were involved.

I'm sure in July of 1917 that there weren't a record number of planes aloft, but it goes to point out the difficulty in establishing numbers for one dogfight. Mel was never really sure if he had been in one dogfight of thirty that morning!

[Regulus]

I know of a dogfight that seems to have happened over Polygon Wood where 94 planes were involved, just don't remember where I read about it... :mad:

[Simba]

As Stephen says, depends on what one calls a dogfight. My definition would be one or more aircraft of each side directly engaged with one or more of the other.

One-on-many probably goes to Barker's VC action or Voss' duel to the death with 56 Squadron RFC.

[Barrett]

Thanx to all.
Concur w/Simba. A dogfight could be 1v1 or 1vMany or Many v Many.
No less an authority (!) than archie Whitehouse--who modestly claimed to have inaugurated the aerial dogfight--said it had to involve 50 planes.
Batguano. If you're KIA in a 1V1 or amidst a huge furball, the result is precisely the same.
I forget who said "Excitement frequently is the byproduct of miscalculation."
As in Voss; as in Barker!

[Pips]

Would Dieppe qualify in the large air battle stakes? Admittedly the fighting raged on and off throughout the day but, according the book by Norman Franks, there were a couple of occasions where more than 100 aircraft were involved in a massive dogfight.

[stephen]

My definition would be one or more aircraft of each side directly engaged with one or more of the other.
With that standard the field narrows considerably, making the highs lower and the lows higher.... i.e., 25-35 plane direct engagements were fairly common. Even the Rusty Baron's last day had 30+ in direct contact. But on the high side, I don't know if it is even possible to say that 100+ planes were in direct contact. The collision ration would have dwarfed any actual kills. Any 100+ plane melee would surely have taken up a full mile of air space, and I'm not sure we can say that the two planes a mile apart are directly engaged.

[TomVrille]

As Stephen says, depends on what one calls a dogfight. My definition would be one or more aircraft of each side directly engaged with one or more of the other.


Does anybody know what was assumed to constitute a "dogfight" when the term first came into common usage? I have heard it said that the term was first used by a journalist, but I have never seen a credible account of who that journalist was, which publication he was writing for, or when the term first appeared in print! Can anyone shed some light on these points?

Given that the specifications of a "dogfight" are somewhat loose, I suppose anyone is entitled to their own ideas. I have always thought that some of the defining characteristics of a dogfight were that it was impossible to be aware of all of the players at any particular moment, and that at least 2 players on each side were involved. In this definition, a 1v1 fight would be a duel, and a 1v2 engagement would be a duel against odds. Just a thought. :huh:

[Barrett]

Tom, that's a valid point. A friend and coauthor was a tactics instructor in the Navy's F-8 community, and he described a bone-chiller engagement over Rota, Spain in the 60s. Two full Crusader squadrons met overhead the base during a Med cruiser "turnover". Twenty-four Type A Personality studs yanking and banking. Pirate said, "Best dogfight I was ever in."