Richthofen a Cold blooded Killer??

[jamoz]

So was he a cold blooded killer like some people say? What is the truth? :unsure:

[reservepilot]

Jamoz,

I put my response to your question/statement on the other thread, but I will post it here for discusion since it is more appropriately "on topic" here.

A fighter pilot, to be good, is a "cold killer". Pure and simple. There can be no argument. For a good fighterpilot to be anything else can cost him his life. Perhaps, when von Richthofen began to feel the pressures of war, brought on by his head injury and dissolusionment at the prospect of a German loss, (and perhaps compasion), he was killed. Whether you beleive the Aussis shot him down from the ground or Brown tagged him from the air, odds are his mind was not fully committed, or in the game, at the time of his demise. No one knew but him. However, his letters to his parents are probably the best indicator of his state of mind. I have seen nothing to make me change my opinion as to their authenticity, but I may be incorrect.

George

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Jamoz:
In aerial combat, there is no second place!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[FliegerJG1]

Uh oh....here we go again.....I say this because questions about this person become so controversial and attract all kinds of flak. I want to give you as honest an answer as possible.

Actually whether or not MvR was cold blooded will depend on how you want to interpret and weight the documentation. Some people take quotes that come out of his memoirs. These were written in May-June 1917 and were highly censored as published--both MvR later on and his family denied that these reflected his true character and experience. Early on he was idealistic and eager to get into the fight as were many patriotic men on both sides of the conflict. He wasn't a fighter pilot for long before he saw that Germany wasn't going to win the war and things were quite serious. Therefore, early comments may sound cold blooded.

Everyone seems to have zeroed in on the cold blooded aspect...perhaps because he is credited as the top ace of the war...but as I read other ace memoirs, their thoughts are very much the same as his. Those who knew Richthofen personally record his charming friendly disposition. His family remembers him as full of life and energy. He also had the unpleasant job of leading the air war for Germany and the very nature of this is going to make ones actions apparently harsh. He led by example, personally training pilots, and wasn't going to get results by being soft or "nice."

I feel that if one were to take MvR and place the person in an RFC uniform and a Sopwith Pup, the talk of being cold blooded might disappear.

Just my 2 cents here...hope this may prove helpful....

FliegerJG1 :apilot:

[LedZepplane]

So was he a cold blooded killer like some people say? What is the truth? :unsure:

When you’re trained either as a solder in the trenches or a fighter pilot your soul purpose is to kill as many of the enemy as you can. I have never seen combat and hope that I never do, but if it came to preserve my life on the battlefield I guess I could become a “trained killer” But that still doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t have a sense of moral countenance about myself. The same with von Richthofen, and I don’t understand why people ask the question if Richthofen was a “cold blooded killer”? You can’t talk ethics and morals over with your appoint regarding the political issues of war and why we’re here slaughtering one another….that’s a subject for cold blooded politicians to discus. After all, it’s their alliances and political policies that are responsible for millions of young men being behind the guns of war. Richthofen was a skilled soldier, a man of valor.

Danny

[margaret smith]

Richthofen was a great guy, just like a lot of other aces in the war. But when you are in the skies with bullets whizzing all around you it's kill or be killed and that's the hard cold facts.

[reservepilot]

Gentlemen and Madam:

I do not disagree with any of your comments. This question came about because I made the comment on another thread that MvR, from his own letters and memoirs was a despondent cold killer. I stated that I hoped the new MvR movie would present this side of his personality in the cockpit.

I have stated, and I stand by it, that to be a good fighter pilot you have to have this attitude in order to survive. Whomever is to blame for creating the venue in which a fighter pilot plys his trade is another matter. Simply stated, and I do not want to beat this dead horse anymore, to survive a fighter pilot must have killer instinct, superior training, a lot of luck or providence, if you will.

George

[R Pope]

The man had a dog that loved him. How cold could he be?

[Pips]

According to contemporary accounts one of the nicest, warmest human beings ever encountered was John Cunningham, the outstanding pioneer British night fighter ace of WWII with 20 odd victories. Yet he showed no mercy to any of his victims. Indeed night fighting is even more a case of cold blooded murder than day fighting.

Cecil Lewis probably said it best when he stated:
" In all air fighting (and indeed in every branch of aerial warfare) there is an essential in which it differs from war on the ground: it's absolute cold-bloodedness. You could not lose your temper with an aeroplane. You cannot 'see red'. You certainly cannot resort to 'Dutch' courage. Any of these may fog your judgement - and that spells death. Like duelling, air fighting required a set steely courage, drained of all emotion, fined down to a tense and deadly effort of will. The Angel of Death is less callous, aloof, and implacable than a fighting pilot when he dives.

Given that Lewis served with such notable aces as Ball, McCudden, Rhys-Davies and others, and was an ace himself, the above is a very illuminating comment on the general state of mind to air fighting.

[VtwinVince]

What, Ginger hasn't jumped all over this one yet? This is more of the usual allied nonsensical stereotyping. The allied aces were all jovial, good-natured gentlemen whilst the Germans were rabid, cold-blooded, raping-and-pillaging murderers. And of course history is always completely black and white:rolleyes:

[Yeoman]

Looks like the Aerodromes MVR obsession shows no signs of waining yet then..:rolleyes:

[reservepilot]

My comment made no distinction between any nationality. Any good fighter pilot has to be cold blooded in the cockpit.

George

[Ginger.]

What, Ginger hasn't jumped all over this one yet? This is more of the usual allied nonsensical stereotyping. The allied aces were all jovial, good-natured gentlemen whilst the Germans were rabid, cold-blooded, raping-and-pillaging murderers. And of course history is always completely black and white:rolleyes:

:disappear: :disappear:

:)

[ww1 ace]

I do not think MvR was a cold blooded killer, which he did not kill someone who was completely defenseless, unlike a young cold blooded personality like Goering or any other person that had other ideas of war.

[HistoryBuff]

Was Richthofen a cold-blooded killer in war? Sure. Everybody was, who lived. Does that mean he wasn't a normal person back in Germany? Not really. Nobody survives that is merciful or 'dignified'. Clean and orderly war is something that politicians made up. It's even more ugly to prosecute war in that way. If countries treated it as the worst conflict on earth, maybe they'd be less inclined to start wars. (And, no, I am NOT talking about the U.S. here.)

[mah bah sah]

OF COURSE NOT!
He was a greatly talented pilot who singed up for the calvery and later the air force to help his country. He was a human.

Seriously stop asking dumb questions like this people.

[Ginger.]

OF COURSE NOT!
He was a greatly talented pilot who singed up for the calvery and later the air force to help his country. He was a human.

Seriously stop asking dumb questions like this people.

They reckon there's no such thing as a dumb question, only a dumb answer ....
:witchdr: the case for the prosecution rests. :witchdr:

[rainbase]

I don't think you can single Von Richthofen out as being a particularly cold blooded killer. He was, after all, simply doing a job that a couple thousand other guys were trying to do. Of course he was pretty damn good at it, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd wager to guess that there weren't too many airmen who were remorseful after scoring a kill. It's well known that most flyers wouldn't dwell over mourning comrades who's "gone west". This was surely a survival mechanism that would allow them to go out and perform their job day after day. Feeling bad about killing the enemy would have even been a lesser occurance.

Of course there will always be notable exceptions to this phenomina, but for the most part all of the successful pilots would have been "cold blooded" to some degree. It would be hard to function otherwise.

[stephen]

Those who knew Richthofen personally record his charming friendly disposition. His family remembers him as full of life and energy.
FWIW... Carl-August von Schönebeck flew with MvR in the summer and autumn of 1917 and knew him well. Schonebeck lived until the late '80's and we exchanged letters with me, of course, asking The Question.

Mr. Schonebeck replied that Manfred was energetic, very outgoing and friendly, popular with the Jasta pilots and had a great sense of humor. It was exactly the opposite response of what I expected. And remember, Mr. Schonebeck knew Manfred during the time that he was recovering from his head wound in July.

Dunno 'bout you guys, but I still tend to believe the people who were there as opposed to latter day authors and second-guessers. Do with that what you will.

[Taz]

As someone who was a trained killer and earned the taxpayer's dollars during the first great unpleasantness in the Gulf, I might add that the fighter jock's prayer is "Dear God, please do not let me screw this up." MvR had, I had, and everyone who flew in wartime, had a job to do. That was to destroy the enemy in as humane a fashion as possible, kill as few innocents as possible, survive to do your job another day, and train and protect those who worked for you. If that makes you cold blooded, then MvR and I are cut from the same bolt of cloth. Do not try and and assign your 21st Century morals to people who were just trying to do the best job they could for country, family, unit, and compatriots and yet still live to talk about it.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[LedZepplane]

As someone who was a trained killer and earned the taxpayer's dollars during the first great unpleasantness in the Gulf, I might add that the fighter jock's prayer is "Dear God, please do not let me screw this up." MvR had, I had, and everyone who flew in wartime, had a job to do. That was to destroy the enemy in as humane a fashion as possible, kill as few innocents as possible, survive to do your job another day, and train and protect those who worked for you. If that makes you cold blooded, then MvR and I are cut from the same bolt of cloth. Do not try and and assign your 21st Century morals to people who were just trying to do the best job they could for country, family, unit, and compatriots and yet still live to talk about it.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Well said, Taz.

Danny

[Vin]

Yep, cold blooded killer, unlike all the other pilots in the war.

[Roadhog]

A great man named Nathan Bedford Forrest once said to a group of young Confederate soldiers, "War means fighting and fighting means killing." Over the Western Front it was kill or be killed, plain and simple.

I really believe that MvR's love of hunting and his skill at it has contributed much to the cold-blooded school of thought as did his "unsportsman like" habit of going after two-seater aircraft instead of the game little fighters despite the fact that it was the observation crates that did most of the damage to the German Army. MvR loved his dog and had a close relationship with several of his peers. Just before his last take off it is said that he played a practical joke on one of his pilots who was trying to catch an extra 40 winks before takeoff by sneaking up on him and flipping him over onto the grass.

I am sure that in several villages in Central America myself and my soldiers are still reviled as cold-blooded killers and I turned out just fine. Ask Craig! VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."

[R Pope]

You have to remember, he was little more than a boy when "That unpleasantness " all began. A somewhat provincial lad, as were all his generation. The callousness of youth can easily be misinterpreted as cold-bloodedness, especially from our vantage point on history. His own writings are in the style of the time, and interpreted by others of the same era. The meanings and subtle twists of idioms and slang are lost on us.
That being said, he WAS a German!!! Hahaha.

[Executioner128]

Just like someone pointed out very well on the first page

Asking whether he was a cold killer or not is a bit digressing from the issue...

I suspect Richthofen was a friendly and respectable man. He described his admiration for Bölcke's personality: "equally polite to EVERYone" , I don't think harsh persons actually can perceive or appreciate such behaviour...

Voss is a better candidate for this question: he aimed for the engine of enemy two-seaters, to at least give his foe a chance to crash-land and survive... that's what I call true "chivalry" !

[crankcase]

I think we have put to rest MvR's approach to fighting, but what do you all make of his comments (in "Der rote Kampfflieger") concerning his brother Lothar? Intriguing, no?
crankcase

[Epee]

I think MvR was indicating that Lothar lacked subtilty, someone who when faced with an enemy force only tactic was "Let's jump in the middle of them and shoot our way out!"

In "The Blonde Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann's biography, it was mentioned that the WW2 Germans refered to two kinds of fighter pilots. They had the "Head Flyer", who stalked his opponent, weighed his chances, waited for opportunity and had a plan to disengage. In our terms a "boom and zoom", or "energy" fighter. The other was the "Muscle Flyer" who charged in and engaged in a dogfight. In modern terms a "stall", "stick", "yank and bank" fighter. It was said that there were many good Muscle fighters but no old muscle fighters.

Where do you think the Richthofen brothers fit in those models?

[Sreiko]

Jamoz:
In aerial combat, there is no second place!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Simple but truth!!! :mellow:

[nigelrayner]

In "The Blonde Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann's biography, it was mentioned that the WW2 Germans refered to two kinds of fighter pilots. They had the "Head Flyer", who stalked his opponent, weighed his chances, waited for opportunity and had a plan to disengage. In our terms a "boom and zoom", or "energy" fighter. The other was the "Muscle Flyer" who charged in and engaged in a dogfight. In modern terms a "stall", "stick", "yank and bank" fighter. It was said that there were many good Muscle fighters but no old muscle fighters.

Where do you think the Richthofen brothers fit in those models?

Well, from my reading, MvR was the former and Voss was more like the latter - loved a dogfight. Don't know about Lothar.

The original question is pointless because there is no accepted measure of what makes someone a "cold blooded killer". It is a purely subjective assessment that can only be an opinion. It also depends on your own personal perspective. MvR was a hunter - most vegetarians would probably regard anyone that hunted as "cold blooded killers" while people that are hunters themselves obviously would not.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Rbailey]

But ordering trophy cups to commemorate your victories does perhaps raise certain questions about one's psychology. But otherwise, he did what he was expected to do, and exceedingly well.

[FliegerJG1]

Why Manfred collected the victory cups might be explained like this. He grew up in a very competitive world filled with trophies of achievement. When he was only 6, he made a small award plaque of some duck feathers from a duck he shot in his grandmother's pond. Trophies were a visible sign of your worth and achievement and Manfred was very intent on becoming the best fighter pilot. The cups indicated his status, especially at home where there was sibling rivalry with Lothar. Also, the fighter pilots did not personalize those planes they shot down...they had to be very objective and impersonal for survival....so while it seems ghoulish to us looking at them representing men KIA, in actuality to Manfred they were likely enemy planes taken out of action. This is how I've understood the collecting of the cups.

Very Best Regards,

FliegerJG1 :apilot:

[nigelrayner]

But ordering trophy cups to commemorate your victories does perhaps raise certain questions about one's psychology.

Again, it depends on your personal sensibilities and perspective. You may have noticed that many people who hunt put the heads of dead animals on their walls. Far more questionable than making a small cup to commemorate a victory (which is your job in defence of your country), yet would you therefore define every hunter that does that as a "cold blooded killer"?

MvR's victory cups were forms of hunting trophies. He was supposed to hunt and destroy enemy aircraft, and he commemorated that in a way that was normal for him. Remember that German pilots got an award from the government for destroying 8 (or later 20) aircraft, so there's not a lot of difference between wearing a Blue Max (which is effectively an award for killing people) and having victory trophies made.

Also, bear in mind that when MvR started the victory cup idea, air combat was less frequent and victories harder to come by, so they were more noteworthy. I doubt that he ever thought he would end up with such a large number of victories when he started out.

I don't see anything odd in MvR's behaviour given his background as a skilled and dedicated hunter, and also the competitive ethos among German fliers at the time, fuelled by the propaganda focus on the new "Knights of the Air" (Sanke cards and all that).

Cheers,

Nigel

[nigelrayner]

Just picking up from my previous train of thought (about German propaganda), compare the concept of the Blue Max to British gallantry awards. The Blue Max was awarded for victories, fair and square. Many of the British air VCs in WWI were awarded for individual acts of gallantry and heroism, rather than the number of victories. Some (eg McCudden, Mannock) were for "overall" performance but most (eg Rhodes-Moorhouse, Warneford, McLeod etc) were for individual acts. So I think you have to take into account the fact there was more focus placed on individual victories by the German establishment. Also, remember that MvR was with Boelcke in the early days when the whole Immelman/Boelcke rivalry would have been fresh in their minds.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Epee]

A fighter pilot's most basic measure of effectiveness is the number of enemy planes he has shot down. Other than the expense what pray tell is the difference between having a trophy made and painting little kill marks on the side of your plane? If Von Richthofen was creepy for trophy cups then not only is every ace of every nation of every war since just as creepy, but cheap too!

[DEM]

Nathan

I don't think we can call Nanthan Bedford Forrest a great man. He supported a government that wanted to destory the United States and keep black people in chains. He represented a country (the Confederate States) best known for treason, slavery, rape and murder. After the war, he was a member of the KKK, one of the most dispicable organizations in the history of the world.
Put simply, he was a disgrace as a person, even if he was, as I am willing to admit, a very brave and capable soldier. Being a courageous and skilled warrior does not make you great. Hitler, despite what we may think of him, was a good soldier, and a brave one. But like Forrest, he was not a great person.

[Roadhog]

Dear DEM, Nathan Bedford Forrest rose from the rank of private to Major General on his own merits. As far as wanting to destroy our nation, it says right in our founding documents that when a people feel that a governemrnt no longer represents them they have the right to cast it off anf create another. That is what the men and women of the South tried to do, and hey, they bagged 400,000 Yankees in the process.

As far as founding the KKK he did indeeed do that; he also ordered the Klan disbanded when he saw that it was evolving onto a terrorist organization and not the para military force he had imagined that he would command to fight the occupying Union Army. The disolution papers are still in existence.

As far as war goes, one man's hero has always been another man's butcher. General Sherman is loved across the North and hailed as a great hero, while I would carve his skull into a drinking mug and then use it!

Your reference to Hitler is too intellectually feeble to address. The Confedercay was not founded on the deluded list of crimes you mentioned sir. After the war, the reason that Jefferson Davis was not tried for treason was that the government lawyers were afraid that Davis and his legal team would prevail and prove that secession was legal in a court of law.

General Forrest is still loved across the South and there is not a damn thing that your tribe can do to make my tribe see your point of view. Do yourself a favor and go read a good book on the American Civil War. VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."

[Barrett]

Sheesh!

NBF did not want to "destroy" the USA. He wanted to leave the union--there's a huge difference for anybody who claims objectivity. No less an authority than Honest Abe Himself stated in his first inaugurual address that those who disapproved of the union were free to overthrow it or dismantle it. Of course, he was a politician and failed to act as he spoke, but there's nothing new about that! However, since AL said that the south had the right to leave the union, who's to blame NBF or anyone else for trying to do so?

Furthermore, the CSA never had the remotest chance of destroying the US even if that had been a goal. The population and industrial disparities were far too great.

"A little objectivity goes a long way."

[LedZepplane]

Dear DEM, Nathan Bedford Forrest rose from the rank of private to Major General on his own merits. As far as wanting to destroy our nation, it says right in our founding documents that when a people feel that a governemrnt no longer represents them they have the right to cast it off anf create another. That is what the men and women of the South tried to do, and hey, they bagged 400,000 Yankees in the process.

As far as founding the KKK he did indeeed do that; he also ordered the Klan disbanded when he saw that it was evolving onto a terrorist organization and not the para military force he had imagined that he would command to fight the occupying Union Army. The disolution papers are still in existence.

As far as war goes, one man's hero has always been another man's butcher. General Sherman is loved across the North and hailed as a great hero, while I would carve his skull into a drinking mug and then use it!

Your reference to Hitler is too intellectually feeble to address. The Confedercay was not founded on the deluded list of crimes you mentioned sir. After the war, the reason that Jefferson Davis was not tried for treason was that the government lawyers were afraid that Davis and his legal team would prevail and prove that secession was legal in a court of law.

General Forrest is still loved across the South and there is not a damn thing that your tribe can do to make my tribe see your point of view. Do yourself a favor and go read a good book on the American Civil War. VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."

Roadhog:
Bless you a thousand times for coming to the defense of the “Old South” I’m tired of historical illiterates who think the south was some kind of evil regime which is so ludicrous it makes me want to get a bucket and puke. Like you said, it was Sherman that left scorched earth across the south and is probably responsible for more war crimes than you could shake a bayonet at. Forgive me folks for getting off topic again, but I just couldn’t pass this one by. Back to the issue at hand, namely Richhthofen.

Danny

[TomVrille]

It seems that military people who are extremely good at what they do will be subject to all sorts of criticism. Whether this takes the form of "Richthofen, the cold-blooded killer" (a disparaging description in current day jargon), or "Forrest, the disgrace as a person" (a disparaging description in the jargon of any era), the end result is the same. Military people who achieve notable success in their chosen career can expect to be vilified, usually by advocates of the opposing side against which their best results are attained.

To get a balanced view of these celebrated people, it is necessary to review what their contemporaries had to say about them. In the case of MvR, most of the people against whom he fought spoke respectfully about him, however grudgingly. Virtually all of the people who fought at his side spoke of him with admiration. If any truly objective observers spoke of him at all, they usually just said he was good at what he did, which unfortunately, required taking the lives of a number of people.

The commentaries on General Forrest are strikingly similar. One prominent Union General noted that; "We never know where Forrest is, or what he is going to do, but he always knows where we are, and what we propose to do." (i.e grudging respect). On one occasion, a contingent of Forrest's troops approached their leader, and refused to launch an attack against heavy odds unless Forrest pledged to remain out of the action, as he was too important to take such risks (i.e admiration and a bit of affection as well).

Garnet Wolseley, who began his military career in 1852 and ended it in 1901 as Field Marshal, Viscount Wolseley, commander-in-chief of Her Majesty's forces, seems well-qualified as a knowledgeable and objective observer. He had this to say of Forrest:"If ever England has to fight for her existence,...may we have at the head of our Government as wise and far-seeing a patriot as Mr. Lincoln, and to lead our mounted troops as able a leader as General Forrest!"

Could it be that what attempts to be criticism is, in fact, just recognition of a job well-done? :disappear:

[stephen]

I’m tired of historical illiterates who think the south was some kind of evil regime which is so ludicrous it makes me want to get a bucket and puke.
99.9% of all wars - both Richthofen's and our own - are fought purely for the preservation of the state. The south's effort at independence was a happy exception.

[Intrepid]

William Tecumseh Sherman once called Nathan Bedford Forrest,"the most remarkable man our Civil War produced on either side"



I'm also a civil war buff, with relatives in Alabama