Reconnaissance aircraft...

[castiglione]

...I have a question about two-seater reconnaissance planes of WWI, specifically, which models were the most commonly flown by the various services at certain times during the war?

What German two-seater reconnaissance plane would a Vickers Gunbus or Nieuport 10 have run into? Which French and British reconnaissance would have most commonly tangled with the Fokker E. III?

And so forth (into 1916, 1917 and 1918).

Thanks in advance!

[Epee]

The Albatros B and early C series were probably the single most common German observation aircraft in the 1914-15 period although there were others. Manufacture was nowhere near as standardized as it was in WW2 for many reasons.

The BE2 was the classic "Fokker Fodder" of 1915. Later the Fe2 began to take it's place and give a much better account of itself.

[castiglione]

Thank you for the information.

My knowledge of 2-seaters is pretty dismal.

What were fairly common German 2-seaters operating in 1916 and 1917? I understand the Be2c served well into 1917! One big hole in my knowledge is French 2-seaters. I understand that MF's, Caudrons and Breguets were common in 1915-1916...but after that...I am horribly ignorant.

[Taz]

castiglione- The most common types in winter 1916/1917 would have been the Albatros C.III and C.VII with a few C.Vs, Rumpler C.I (with C.IVs replacing the C.Is beginning in late 1916), and early DFW C.Vs. The DFW C.V was the most common two seater during 1917 and over 4000 were built. If you count the LVG C.V, which was essentially an improved DFW C.V designed by the same designer who jumped ship, the DFW/LVG C.V would be the reconnaissance type most encountered in 1917. My favorite of the lot was the Rumpler C.IV with its great looks and superb high altitude performance from its 260 hp Mercedes.

The DFW C.V Datafile by the late, great Peter Grosz has superb shots of early, side radiator DFW C.Vs from Peter's FA(A) 276 album of pilot F. Decker.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[totoroman]

it was never in widespread use, but during the battle of the Somme Albert Ball considered the Roland C.II to be the deadliest German aircraft in service in mid to late 1916.

there were lots of German recon types in late 1915 that might have squared off against the Vickers Gunbus

in no particular order:

Albatros B.I
Albatros C.I
Aviatik C.I
AEG G.II (a twin-engined number)
LVG C.I (Boelcke scored his first victory in this type)
perhaps the Rumpler C.I as well for late 1915.

in early 1916 you might get the Albatros C.II, C.III, and possibly the Roland C.II

[Breguet]

The BE 2's were replaced by RE 8's (Called Harry Tate's) in 17-18. Not to mention the redoubtable Bristol Fighter

[totoroman]

The DFW C.V was the most common two seater during 1917 and over 4000 were built. If you count the LVG C.V, which was essentially an improved DFW C.V designed by the same designer who jumped ship, the DFW/LVG C.V would be the reconnaissance type most encountered in 1917. My favorite of the lot was the Rumpler C.IV with its great looks and superb high altitude performance from its 260 hp Mercedes.

the Rumpler was a beautiful plane for that period--but the DFW C.V was pretty sweet as well. it and the Roland probably looked like something out of a crazy science-fiction movie when they were first introduced. especially compared to the more ungainly FE2b and BE2c types! although the Sopwith 1 and 1/2 Strutter seems like it was a really solid plane when it was first introduced.

back on topic:

the "Fokker Fodder" would consist mostly of the BE2c, Caudron G.III and G.IV, the Voisin L.III, the Farman 11-40 types (either Henri or Maurice Farmans), Morane Saulnier L two-seater types probably make up the bulk of Fokker victories. all of them were badly outclassed or simply bad planes in their own right. Grinnell-Milne and Jean Beraud Villars both complained that the Farman was incredibly slow and that even with a huge altitude advantage it couldn't catch anything because if you dove too steeply the aircraft would literally shake itself to pieces. you know a plane is bad when people consider the BE2c a "vast improvement" over a Shorthorn Farman!!!

[Uhlan]

... FE2b ... BE2c, Caudron G.III and G.IV, the Voisin L.III, the Farman 11-40 types (either Henri or Maurice Farmans), Morane Saulnier L two-seater ...

All of them pushers except for the BE2, the Moranes and of course the Caudron G.IV which combined all the disadvantages of the pusher with twin tractor engines. I think you also left out the Breguet series of pushers. It's quite amazing that the French and the British stuck with the fence-tail pusher configuration as long as they did. The pushers in particular were literally massacred by the Fokker E as well as the Fokker and Halberstadt D types. The Obendorf raid is a good example. Ironically enough one or two of the Obendorf victories were acieved by AGO C.I recon/bomber aircraft which was one of the hand full of pushers designs the Germans used operationally (but only in small numbers). To add insult to injury it turned out on this occasion that the Farman F.40 series could actually out pace the AGO.

[castiglione]

What French two-seaters were commonly in service during 1917 and 1918?

Thanks for the info on the German two-seaters and the French two-seaters in service during 1916.

The plethora of German two-seaters in service is just mind-boggling but I'm somewhat embarrassed at my total ignorance of French aircraft that aren't Nieuports or SPADs.

[Rbailey]

Thank you for the information.

My knowledge of 2-seaters is pretty dismal.

What were fairly common German 2-seaters operating in 1916 and 1917? I understand the Be2c served well into 1917! One big hole in my knowledge is French 2-seaters. I understand that MF's, Caudrons and Breguets were common in 1915-1916...but after that...I am horribly ignorant.


Castiglione

The most common French reconnaissance aircraft (some of which were 3-seaters) at the end of 1917 were A.R. 1/2's and Sopwith 11/2 strutters; other major types were Caudron4/6's and Letords but there were quite a few miscellaneous others. Bombers were mostly Voisin 8's and the Sopwiths. In early 1916 the main French aircraft of all types were Caudron 3/4's, MF 7's and 11's, Nieuport 10's and 11's,and Voisin 3/5's. In Nov. 1918 the reconnaissance machines were mostly Breguet 14's, Salmson 2A2's and SPAD 11/16's, with Breguets and Voisin 10's being the predominant bombers. This is from Soltan and Davilla.

[Lufbery]

Castiglione,

Although developed for a miniatures game, Canvas Eagles, there's a beautiful set of charts showing when various aircraft became available for the different nations in the war at the web site for the game (http://www.generalissue.com/canvas.html).

I can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of the charts, but they seem pretty much right on to me. They are toward the bottom of the page -- you can't miss them. Just in case, here are specific links:

Aircraft from 1914, 1915, and 1916 (http://www.generalissue.com/canvas/avail2.gif)

Aircraft from 1917 and 1918 (http://www.generalissue.com/canvas/avail1.gif)

The trick, then is knowing which planes were reconnaissance aircraft (which were also sometimes bombers too) and which were fighters. The "Aircraft" section of this site is good for that information.

I hope this helps,

[Uhlan]

What French two-seaters were commonly in service during 1917 and 1918?

Thanks for the info on the German two-seaters and the French two-seaters in service during 1916.

The plethora of German two-seaters in service is just mind-boggling but I'm somewhat embarrassed at my total ignorance of French aircraft that aren't Nieuports or SPADs.

Good books on any WWI aircraft other than fighters can be hard to get ahold of. Take for example the various Farman/Breguet/Vosin pushers. They served in large numbers and did a huge amount of important work but there is hardly any literature dedicated to them (at least that I am aware of). There are a few books such as 'French Aircraft of the First World War' but that book gives more of an overview than the kind of in depth coverage you get from the Datafile series. I'm still waiting for the above mentioned trio to show up in the Windsock Datafile series. Not that I am complaining mind you... :) ... Ray Rimell of Albatros Productions and his co-authors deserve much credit for putting out an awful lot of material on historically significant yet 'unpopular' (read: non fighter) aircraft of WWI in the Windsock Datafile series. Just try digging up material on German Twin engined bombers of WWI. Apart from the Datafiles the best references I have is a small FotoFax Booklet by Alex Imrie, a hand full of issues of C&C reproducing articles that appeared in "The Aeroplane", "l'Aerophile" and "Flugsport" during and just after WWI and the instruction booklets I got with my Americal Gryphon decal sheets.

[Breguet]

If you can get hold of a copy of "Reconnaissance and Bomber Aircraft of the 14-18 War" By Harleyford it is certainly a good solid start - though like all works it has some problems it has great technical details and loads of pictures.

[Uhlan]

If you can get hold of a copy of "Reconnaissance and Bomber Aircraft of the 14-18 War" By Harleyford it is certainly a good solid start - though like all works it has some problems it has great technical details and loads of pictures.

I got ahold of a very poor copy of that book, which I have now repaired. The drawings are great but there might be more pictures, but I am not complaining, the drawings were a great find. The stuff I am after is really datafile style photo essays and even unit histories for non fighter units be they German, French or British. I like the Osprey 'Aces' and 'Aviation Elite Units' series but they tend to concenterate on what sells which is fighters. I have for example been studying the history of MF98T during the Gallipoli campaign. Apart from a single OTF article, a single (way to small :( ) picture in the Harleyford book and another single photo of a bunch of grinning Turks and Germans standing around what is reported to be the wreck of MF942 of MF98T there is little to be had. The same goes for the French units involved in the Obendorf raid or the famous French rocket attack on the German kite Ballon line at Verdun it's hard to find any data, especially on specific aircraft involved. Althoug there are some notable exceptions, much of the best data, especially on recon/bomber aircraft usually comes from capture reports on aircraft that were shot down by either German, French or British fighters.

[castiglione]

Thanks for all the information, all! Great stuff there!

I had a few more if you don't mind indulging me...

What was the most common German reconnaissance aircraft flown in 1918? I imagine it was some model of Rumpler?

And for the British, was much of the reconnaissance work done by Bristol fighter units who were doing "double duty" or were RE8's still doing much of the work?