German SPAD 7 !

[Buddecke]

Hello,
I am looking for more information about this captured Spad 7. I think the photo is taken 1918. The SPAD had the serial number VII 1565 (or 1568 or 1865 or 1868). The SPAD was used by the German, and crashed with German markings.
Who can help me ?

For any kind of help, thanks.

Buddecke :apickel:

http://www.buddecke.de/schlasta6/r.jpg

[Buddecke]

.. and crashed

:camera:

http://www.buddecke.de/schlasta6/flugzh.jpg

[Buddecke]

:magnify: :camera:

http://www.buddecke.de/schlasta6/y.jpg

[Uhlan]

Hello,
I am looking for more information about this captured Spad 7. I think the photo is taken 1918. The SPAD had the serial number VII 1565 (or 1568 or 1865 or 1868). The SPAD was used by the German, and crashed with German markings.
Who can help me ?

For any kind of help, thanks.

Buddecke :apickel:

There are quite a few examples of captured Spads and Nieuports being used by the Germans. This paticular one I haven't seen before though. Perhaps it was used by a training unit? Anyway... nice find! Where did you get it?

[Taz]

Buddecke- I have an album with a couple of pictures of similarly marked Spad V.IIs which were flown by Jastaschule I at Valencienne. JS I had a whole group of allied aircraft painted in dark colors and German markings and apparently regularly flown. Whether they were flown by instructors as part of a dissimilar combat training program or whether they were used to allow students to fly them (scary), I do not know. JS I had simultaneously several Nieuports, an F.E.8, a Sopwith Pup (Black Tulip),and a couple of Spad V.IIs in photos I have in a Vzfw Toni Schmitz album. A friend of mine has an album with some of the same JS I photos, so they must have passed them out to all the students who wanted them. Alan Toelle and Bernard Klaeyle are the experts on downed Spads and Nieuports. I will drop them an e-mail and see what they have.

Some of the Jastas also kept Entente aircraft after capturing them. Jasta 12, in particular, had an early round winged Spad XIII visible in multiple Jasta 12 and JG II photographs.



Taz
Terry Phillips

[Taz]

Buddecke- From Alan and Bernard:
S.1565 was returned to depot from Spa.76 on 27 april 1918, and would not be the one you refer to.

S.1568 was used by Spa.3. I don't know its disposition.

S.1865 and 1868 are Spad XIIIs.

They suggest possibly 13XX since I know I have a hard time with telling the difference between French SN 3s, 5s, 6s and 8s.

I am sending them your photos to see if that helps.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Taz]

Buddecke- No help with the photos, I am afraid. Res is too low.

Here are Alan's comments:
The general finish on the airplane is clear dope and varnish. It is probably an unusually dark colored linen. The light color highlights on fabric parts of the fuselage indicate repairs. The tapes on the upper wing were seen a lot from mid 1917. In earlier times, Spad did not sew the fabric at each rib. It was attached with tacks. After bad results, tapes were added, but not to all ribs and not necessarily to the ribs. In this case, the tapes seem to be placed between the ribs. This work seems to have been done to French planes in the field, as there is no definite consistent system. The light color of the tapes suggests they were cotton. In any case, what you see is not a marking or decoration.

The light color of the tail post and access panel is due to the use of light beige paint (Ripolin) on those parts. This is often seen and is not a decoration.

If you want to try to get higher res copies to Alan, I can arrange that. Send me a PM if interested.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Buddecke]

the serial number ???

http://www.buddecke.de/schlasta6/flugzha.jpg

[Buddecke]

again ......

Taz, send me your email adress. Thanks

http://www.buddecke.de/schlasta6/flugzhaa.jpg

[Arhad]

Hi all,

have anybody some information about this Spad ?

[Immo_Frese]

Arhad,

this is a SPAD VII S/N 224 from Escadrille N 31, most probably flown by Lt. Mistarlet. He was shot down an taken POW by Lt. Heinrich Bongartz, Jasta 36 who claimed a SPAD near Vitry-les-Reims on 6 Apr 1917.

Immo

[Arhad]

..thanks Immo, I´m the freshman in interesting of WWI.
Have you some other photo of SPAD or Nieuport in German servise ?

[Gregvan]

Hallo Buddecke,

I can offer no solid opinions on the original French identity of your captured SPAD, but I do have the following photograph showing the same aircraft:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a108/Gregvan/CapturedSPADVII.jpg

This photo was taken at the Jagdstaffel 23b airfield, and comes from the Theodor Rumpel collection housed in the Ferko files at UTD. The Halberstadt CL.II aircraft seen in the background was a Staffel "hack', a two-seater used for various errands, etc by the Jasta. It displayed the Jasta 23b unit marking of vertical white/black bands on the fin and tailplane. It would seem possible that the Jasta 23b pilots kept this SPAD around and crashed it - this was not uncommon.

I cannot date the photo, but I do note that both Rumpel and Kissenberth of Jasta 23b successfully claimed SPADs on 19 September 1917. One of these may have been Cpl Marcel Vassal of Escadrille N80, who went missing that day.

Hope this is of interest.

Greg

[Buddecke]

Hello Greg,
thanks for photo and information. I have the correct number of the SPAD VII 1506. You are right. The SPAD was on the "stocktaking list" by 31.12.1917 of the Jasta 23b. It was captured 1917 and crashed in year 1918.

In German: Die SPAD VII 1506 ist definitiv im Personal- und Gerätenachweis der Jasta 23b per 31.12.1917 aufgelistet. Sie wurde also 1917 erbeutet. Der Absturz erfolgte demnach im Jahr 1918. Ich hoffe die englische Übersetzung bringt dies zum Ausdruck !!!!! :D

More Infos of this SPAD ? French loses ?
Fliegertruppe, thanks for correct serial number. :thumbsup:

Buddecke :apickel:

[Taz]

Arhad- There is another photo of your Spad in The French Air Service Chronology and the information agrees exactly with what Immo told you. This aircraft was eventually sent to Jastaschule I at Valencienne and most likely eventually overpainted a dark color. I have an excellent photo of the aircraft with the word Abgeschossen and part of an inscription (most likely with date, unit and victor) on the side before it was completly overpainted (if it was). Also have a group photo of captured JSI aircraft including two Spad VIIs after overpainting. Send me a PM and I will e-mail you the two images from my Toni Schmitz album if you are interested. This was a widely photographed aircraft seen in multiple photo albums and poses.

Taz
Terry Phillips