The Disappearance of Georges Guynemer: What Exactly Happened?

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

I had a discussion/debate on a private Xfire chat with three other friends of mine the other day, and we were talking about the Great War. Well, as the night wore on, one of them mentioned Guynemer and what happened to him. It's gotten me more and more interested in the man (and I'm not much of a fanboy of the French pilots... save for Nungesser) since he's one of the few famous aces whose status was never accounted for during the war.

As it stands, can anyone tell me EXACTLY what happened the date Guynemer was last seen? I know that he was last seen attacking an Aviatik, but does anyone have any other information (rumors, claims, etc.)?

Guynemer was never found and neither was his plane. Does anyone else think that the body might have been destroyed, along with the plane, by bombing or shelling? I've somewhat come to that conclusion, and I know I'm not the first one, either, but does anyone else think it could very well be true? As I said, I'm not extremely fond of the French aces or their history. I stick to the Germans and British ones.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

L.L., vous n'aimez pas les as Français ou leur histoire ... ça c'est insupportable!

When visiting the Pantheon in Paris, knowing that within there was a marker commemorating Georges Guynemer, I asked an attendant, in poorly spoken French, where to find the memorial to the great man. The fellow looked above and pointed upward saying "Guynemer est dan le ciel" ... Guynemer is in the sky! So still the legend is told that Guynemer flew too high and could never come down.

Eventually the intent was understood and the marker was found. As was the body of Guynemer. Though there is much to discuss and debate about the final flight the initial resting spot is known.

The SPAD XIII and Guynemer were found by German soldiers in the vicinity of a military cemetery near Poelkapelle.

Numerous personal items including identity cards were found. A doctor inspected the body of Guynemer and a military funeral followed. Unfortunately the grave site was lost in the continuing strife of the Great War.

Adieu Guynemer

[FOKKERJ]

Thanks Kirk for that information about the Great French Ace Guynemer!:apilot:


Very Best Regards, FOKKERJ:spandau:

[Froggy]

Hello Kirk

Merci beaucoup pour votre évocation de Georges Guynemer
Moi aussi je crois qu'il se plaisait tellement la-haut, au-dessus de la foule,
qu'il a décidé d'y rester...peut-être n'y a t-il pas de place sur terre pour les héros comme lui ?

Thank you very much for your evocation of Georges Guynemer
I too believe that he liked so much to fly above the crowd
that he decided to stay in the sky.Maybe there is
no place on earth for the heroes as him?

The fact that Guynemer was "french " as not importance
there is no nationality in the world of the true heros

Here is the citation we can read on the monument erected at his memory:

"Killed on the field of honour on September 11th 1917. A legendary hero, fallen, at the height of his glory, after three years of brilliant struggle. He will remain the purest symbol of the qualities of his race; indomitable tenacity, fierce energy, sublime courage. Driven by the most unshakeable faith in victory he bequeaths to the French soldier an imperishable memory which will exalt the spirit of sacrifice and result in the noblest of imitations"

Best regards
Bruno

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Kirk R. Lowry:
When my Wife and I visited Willy Coppens in late September 1976, and while we were at the Guynemer Memorial in Poecapelle, Willy told us the the French school children were told that the France's Hero, Guynemer flew so high he landed in Heaven and he can't come back down. Willy was the force behind getting the Memorial built. Willy told Patti andI that Guynemer was having some trouble with his engine and Guynemer landed at Les Moeres, Willy's air field. While Guynemer was working on his engine, Willy strolled over and was talking to him. When Guynemer was finished, he took off. Willy was the last person who spoke to Guynemer. Guynemer was Willy's hero too.
Willy said he was disturbed that France never built a memorial to Guynemer, so Willy took it on himself and through his friends the Belgian pilots they collected the necessary money and built the memorial in Poecapelle, Belgium.
Willy wrote the memorial to Guynemer, which is on the front of the memorial.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Froggy]

Hello Dan san

Thank you very much for your very interesting and instructive post
You have a lot of chance to have the opportunity to meet Willy Coppens

Cordialement
Bruno

[jastaflieger]

I have always wondered why the French aces seem to be given the short end of the writing stick, so to speak: i have often thought it was because of the language barrier, much easier for me as an American to read about english pilots written in english of course: and it seems there is a fascination among many for the german pilots/aces.
i have recently begun research with the assistance of Bruno and Mr Andre navarre to prepare an article on the incomparable Jean Navarre with the hopes of interesting an editor at OTF, what an incorrigable spirit and elan jean navarre was:
Perhaps , more can be forthcoming about French aces, after all- they were they too!!! And the pilots such as Guynemer, navarre, nungessor, coifford and others displayed such elan and skill, seems a pity more is not written about them: is there an osprey French aces of WW1?

[spacecrow]

http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive/w/images/Spad13_504.jpg

According to this site: Viuex Charles was not painted on his last plane.

[gilles]

The French army made several investigations about Guynemer's body. First one in 1919 and last one in 1957. At that time, Belgian local authorities said that there was no probability to find anything : the battlefield has been cleaned by metal collecters for decades.
Raymond Collishaw also did investigate about Guynemer's last flight in summer 1967.

source : "Le dernier vol de Guynemer", Bernard Marck 1991

Gilles

[Barrett]

Years (and years) ago while searching for something else on line (of course) I came across a 1917 NY Times reference that GG's grave had been found. If I had the link it's long gone.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Hello Kirk

Merci beaucoup pour votre évocation de Georges Guynemer
Moi aussi je crois qu'il se plaisait tellement la-haut, au-dessus de la foule,
qu'il a décidé d'y rester...peut-être n'y a t-il pas de place sur terre pour les héros comme lui ?


Best regards
Bruno

Bruno, merci pour vos mots que j'apprécie beaucoup.

I have long been fascinated by Guynemer. There was and is a distinctive air about the man.

I wonder if it would be possible for you, having abundant computer skills, to post a map of the sight of the crash? In The Storks, by Franks and Bailey, the location is described as follows: "about 700 metres north-west of a military cemetery near Poelkapelle".

Merci beaucoup mon ami
Salut!
Kirk

[Froggy]

Hello Kirk

Here is a ggogle view of the crash site- 700 m NW of the English cemetery
The photo is not very clear, but it should give some indications about where he lost his Life..As you seen all seems not to have move since
1917 !!
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o319/SPA124BRUNO/guynemercrashsite.jpg


Bien amicalement
Bruno

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

Interesting find, Froggy. Quite interesting, indeed. I'll check that out on Google Earth, also.

[J.R.]

Guys,

I remember a story in Over the Front from several years ago, perhaps more than five, that had researched this in Poelkappelle and came to the conclusion he was buried in the village cemetery in a mass grave along with some civilian victims of an epidemic.

If some of my fellow League members can help me remember the article and issue of the OTF in question, I would be grateful.

BTW a photo of the memorial can be found on the aces data base of this website.

J.R.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

J.R.
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that the Germans had found him at the crash site and while searching his body, they found his identity card and were able to identify his body??? Hmmmm?
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[alex_revell]

A friend of mine recently attended a commemoration at the G memorial. It was quite a large, high-powered affair with various high officials, the mayor, military personnel, schoolchildren, bands and speeches etc. There was a fly past by military aircraft, but the amazing thing was that after the fly past a lone stork flew over the memorial.

[jastaflieger]

It seems that Guynemer is still flying in the sky, so he never did fall to earth after all!

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour mes amis

Alex - what a marvelous service ... it would be interesting to learn more of the event.

J.R. - The article referred to, Is Guynemer Buried in Rumbeke?, was written by Lothair Vanoverbeke and appears in Over the Front, Volume 15, Number 1, Spring 2000. While of a morbid nature the article is interesting and postulates that Guynemer was buried by German soldiers in a "cemetery along the Kwadestraat in Rumbeke" in a mass grave dug for locals who had recently died during a typhoid epidemic. After reading the article one would be inclined to say that Guynemer may be buried there, but, it cannot be said that Guynemer is buried there ... and even if the reminiscences of locals are correct the man is still lost in an unmarked grave.

Dan-San - You are, of course, correct, several personal items belonging to Guynemer were recovered including an identity card issued le 1er Août 1915. The description of the meeting of Coppens with Guynemer that was related in the article Willy and Me: Dan-San Abbott Meets Willy Coppens which appeared in Over the Front, Volume 22, Number 3, Fall 2007 was amazing. That incident would mean that it could be asserted certainly that the crew of the two seat aircraft initially encountered could not have been responsible for the death of Guynemer and the landing for servicing and perhaps fueling of the SPAD XIII would mean that the time of the sortie would have been extended significantly.

Bruno - merci, comme toujours!

Salut!
Kirk

[Froggy]

Hello

I think that the reason that it was never possible to find where he was buried
is simply because he was never buried ......

"It would appear that one way or another Guynemer had in fact been shot down. Later investigations showed that German Infantry reached the crash site and identified Guynemer from his papers. Whilst hit a number of times, a head wound was put down as the official cause of death.

No sooner had all this happened than the German Infantry had to take cover from a British barrage on the area which as part of the build up to the offensive would last until the 20th and destroyed both pilot and aircraft.

Guynemer's body was never found."

Here is a site( interesting) about Guynemer memorial (among others)

Poelkapelle: Guynemer Cigognes Monument (http://www.webmatters.net/monuments/ww1_guynemer.htm)

cordialement

Bruno

( Revell I like to think that Guynemer should be a stork now)

[rammjaeger]

On 27 September 1917 "The New York Times" had a fantasyful article about Guynemers death with the headline "SAW 40 AIR FOES AFTER GUYNEMER":

Paris, Sept. 26 – Captain Georges Guynemer´s last fight is described by a comrade, who is quoted by the “Excelsior” as follows:
“Guynemer sighted five machines of the Albatross type D-3. Without hesitating he bore down on them. At that moment enemy patrolling machines, soaring at a great height, appeared suddenly and fell upon Guynemer.”
"There were forty enemy machines in the air at this time, including Count von Richthofen and his circus division of machines, painted in diagonal blue and white stripes. Toward Guynemer´s right some Belgian machines hove in sight, but it was too late.”
“Mr Guynemer must have been hit. His machine dropped gently toward the earth, and I lost track of it. All that I can say is that the machine was not on fire."
Then the article discusses G.s exploits.

[TomVrille]

J.R.
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that the Germans had found him at the crash site and while searching his body, they found his identity card and were able to identify his body???

There is a photo of Guynemer's Carte d Identité de Pilote d Avion No. 909, as it appeared in the Berlin publication Die Woche of 6 October 1917, in Jacques Mortane's book Guynemer The Ace of Aces. The rather uncomplimentary caption of this photo is strangely reminiscent of the charges often leveled against MvR, that he picked on solitary two-seaters, and had little stomach for maneuvering fights against targets that could give a good account of themselves. Yet another example of wartime propaganda! :blink: