Dilthey Flugzeugstoff Theory

[Jimmaas]

As soon as I received the great Microsculpt loze...er, flugzeugstoff five color decals, I started looking for a project to use them on. As I understaqnd it, the Microsculpt uppersurface decals represent the 'intermediate dark' 1918 colors. I've always liked the green-white striped Dilthey Albatros D.Va, so I started scrutinizing the famous photo, and past Aerodrome posts, to confirm the liklihood that it used the 'intermediate dark' uppersurface fabric. Certainly it was five-color, the pentagon is all over the place. The wing cross location (I assume they didn't change location during modification to the Balken cross) would make this an OAW D.Va, late enough for 'intermediate dark'. Looks reasonably light, so it's a good shot for 'intermediate dark'. And then I noticed something odd (you may want to go get the Albatros Fighters Windsock Special and turn to page 3 at this point).

The photo is taken with the sun high, behind the photographer but not directly overhead, so both top wing and lower port wing are fully illuminated . But the inboard three (and a bit) ribs sections of the lower port wing are darker than the rest of the surface (not Dilthey's shadow, you can see where that falls). The fabric covering those sections is also five-color (running the same way as the section just outboard). A rough check using a kit wing and decals indicates that if fabric application started at the wingtip, there would be a seam just at the point this color change occurs.

It looks to me that this three-and-a-fraction section may be the earlier Dark (i.e. 1917) uppersurface pattern fabric, perhaps a repair of an area that gets more abuse close to the fuselage. Anyone see any holes in this train of thought?

[Bill McGill]

It appears to me that the rest of the wing surfaces are lighter because we are seeing a reflection of the bright sky, whereas we are seeing a reflection of the (relatively) darker fuselage/nose in the area in question.

That's the way I read it anyway.

HTH.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Jimmaas:
The printed fabric the Albatros Werke used was 1300mm wide with applied to the wings the seams were 1270 to 1280 mm apart. in 1/32 scale that is 39.6 to 40mm apart, in 1/48 scale, 26.5 to 26.7mm apart. Seams do not fall on ribs.
Merry Christmas,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Dan-San, I would be very interested to hear where your figures come from. They are close to, but not the same as some figures I have. One piece I measured, probably around 1987 I would guess, seems to suggest a width between seams (so obviously the fabric would be slightly wider before it was sewn together as panels) of about 1245mm - 1250mm. I am sure that there would have been variations of this.

I am very confused about all this talk of different patterns at different times. If my camera was working I would post a photo of 1917 Flugzeugstoff next to 1918 Flugzeugstoff. Both samples I have photographs of were applied in different factories to aeroplanes built by different companies a year or so apart, and there is virtually no difference. I am not saying that these variations did not exist, it's just that I have not seen any evidence to indicate that there were various patterns. I am sure there will be, but are there any threads on this subject, and better still, are there any photos of ORIGINAL samples to back this up?

Merry Christmas to all, David.

[Jimmaas]

Thaks to everyone for the responses.

Bill, I've looked for the kind of reflection you refer to and have seen something like that in some photos. But (as with most reflections) it tends to be strongest near the fuselage/wing join, and taper off further out. In this case, there's a sudden tonal change just outside the third rib bay.

Dan-San, I don't believe I indicated the join was on a rib. It's an inch or two outboard of the rib. That seems to be a standard location for a fabric panel join (see D.5253 on page 33 of the Windsock Albatros Special, as well as the NASM restoration on page 4).

David, I can't answer your questions regarding fabric width, but I guess I'm trying to address the one you raise about 'different patterns [really, if I understand it, different colors] at different times'. The whole point of this question is that it may place a piece of the 1917 Dark five-color right next to the 1918 Intermediate Dark five-color.

And Merry Christmas to everyone! Jim

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Thaks to everyone for the responses.

Dan-San, I don't believe I indicated the join was on a rib. It's an inch or two outboard of the rib. That seems to be a standard location for a fabric panel join (see D.5253 on page 33 of the Windsock Albatros Special, as well as the NASM restoration on page 4).

David, I can't answer your questions regarding fabric width, but I guess I'm trying to address the one you raise about 'different patterns [really, if I understand it, different colors] at different times'. The whole point of this question is that it may place a piece of the 1917 Dark five-color right next to the 1918 Intermediate Dark five-color.

And Merry Christmas to everyone! Jim

Hi Jim, I will always help anyone where I can. Fabric panel joins just fall wherever they fall. The panels are sewn together and the join is wherever the join is. It could be on a rib, near a rib or in the middle of a span of ribs. It could be inboard or outboard of a rib.

I am still confused. I am really not sure about all this talk about intermediate and dark and light fabric, what is this all about? I would love to see some evidence, because as far as I know, there are 4 colour, 5 colour, upper and lower surface patterns, and some others such as night bomber fabric and marine printed fabric. There was also the beautiful Austro Hungarian printed pattern, and probably others. Will someone please provide a reference to a previous thread or some similar text so that we can all understand what it is all about? The point I was making, and I will post photos when I can, is that if I showed you a photo of some fabric printed in 1917 and some fabric printed in 1918 you would see what I mean. The colours, in particular are so close to identical that you really could say that they are identical. There may be some variation in pattern, but I would not think that there is a lot of variation, if any.

Merry Christmas to everyone! David.

[bobs_buckles]

David,
Thanks for the info.
Work on your camera, I want to see those samples ;)

Merry (warmer Christmas) to you

['14-'18aviationcollector]

No problem Bob! That is why I am here. I want to learn as much as I can, and teach as many people as much as possible. That's what this site is all about. I was given the camera and at that time I am sure it was worth about $5,000. I honestly think I have killed it unfortunately! :( I will have to buy a new one so you guys will just have to be very patient unfortunately. Money is a bit of a problem at the moment, but obviously I will get a new one as soon as possible. I would also like to document the construction of the Fokker D.VIII propellor. Luckily I don't have much to show just yet, but I will when I get another camera somehow. The colours from one sample to the next sample of Flugzeugstoff seem to be remarkably consistent, and I will demonstrate this as soon as I am able to. I am not an expert on 4 colour Flugzeugstoff, but some of the colours (but not all I don't think) seem to be very similar to if not the same as those of the 5 colour patter. I do have some photos of 4 colour Flugzeugstoff, it's just a matter of me finding them and having another look.

Thank you very much for the Christmas wishes! Yes in theory it is warmer here, but at the moment it is not a lot warmer I can assure you!

Merry Christmas everyone. Cheers, David.

[Hal Oele]

Hi Folks,

here are some hot news from my special hotline to my old friend Manfred

greetings Hal:


Mr. Abbott,

stop your information about Flugzeugstoff, they are wrong!

I told you over years there are samples between 1470 mm and 1265 mm width in my collection - may be there are smaller or wider samples in other collections.

For example: in 1917, during war, a new Rouleaux from Mulhouse was installed for 1400 mm wide fabric. During this time more than 10 machines where printing with different sizes of rollers.

Your knowledge about Flugzeugstoff is only fragmentary, just from small samples. You have no access to a single piece of Flugzeugstoff from seam to seam, not to mentioned different prints of Flugzeugstoff.

Manfred Thiemeyer

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hal Oele:
I know Manfred opinion, tell him its mutual. I ask that he produces this 1470mm wide fabric, so that we can all see it the 1917 /1918 fabric. Not the MVT stuff which has a faked pattern faked on one edge.
In regard to the 1270 width. This information is in the booklet, Albatros D.Va, German Fighter of World War I published by National Air & Space Museum. It is a seam to seam measurement. Full width is 1290 to 1300 mm wide. The wing drawings and dimensions have been developed. By dimensional analysis the seam to seam dimension can easily be determined.
So muvh for that.
Merry Christmas,
Dan-San

[StephenLawson]

". . .I am still confused. I am really not sure about all this talk about intermediate and dark and light fabric, what is this all about?. . .Merry Christmas to everyone! David.

This may be a good place to start. The samples start on page 2.

German camouflage colors - a study. (http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/camouflage-markings/21052-german-camouflage-colors.html)