Lt. A.L. Garrett 56 Sqn. Shot down 6-28-1918

[Croix de Guerre]

Lt. Allan Leslie "Ab" Garrett of Clapham, London S.W. of 56 Squadron was shot down, wounded and captured June 26 or 28, 1918. Does any one know who claimed him?

[Raineranton]

Lt. Allan Leslie "Ab" Garrett of Clapham, London S.W. of 56 Squadron was shot down, wounded and captured June 26 or 28, 1918. Does any one know who claimed him?

Hi Croix de Guerre,

according to No 56 Sqd RAF/RFC published by Osprey he was shot down on 28 June 1918 by KFlak-Batterie 7, VzFw. Neumann.

Regards

Rainer

[frontflieger]

according to No 56 Sqd RAF/RFC published by Osprey he was shot down on 28 June 1918 by KFlak-Batterie 7, VzFw. Neumann.

Vize-Wachtmeister ;) Neumann claimed a Sopwith-Single seater. (According to the Nachrichtenblatt der Luftstreitkräfte, No. 22, page 332).

Thorsten

[digit]

Our dear friend the famous British historian Alex Revell (at the other side/site) seems to be in trouble, because he has no access nor could he read German documents. May be he enjoy this here:

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p516/digit85/Neumann.jpg

[Croix de Guerre]

Thank you both for the information. Garrett's name came up associated with the research I am doing on a group of RAF POWs. He was part of a group of British aviators that became friends and stayed together through all the many camps they were assigned to.

If you don't mind here is another name: Cecil "Bud" Marsden of 210 Squadron. Sopwith Camel pilot, shot down 6/9/1918.

[digit]

Not to forget, and Thorsten pointed to it:

with the Flak there was no Vize-Feldwebel, always a Vize-Wachtmeister

[frontflieger]

If you don't mind here is another name: Cecil "Bud" Marsden of 210 Squadron. Sopwith Camel pilot, shot down 6/9/1918.

"The Sky Their Battlefield" gives Hans Georg von der Marwitz (Jasta 30) as the victor. BUT the quoated places have a distance of more thant 20 km between them (perhaps Russ has additional information).

Thorsten

[Raineranton]

Not to forget, and Thorsten pointed to it:

with the Flak there was no Vize-Feldwebel, always a Vize-Wachtmeister

So I've learned something new! :)

Thank you both for the correction.

Rainer

[Croix de Guerre]

"The Sky Their Battlefield" gives Hans Georg von der Marwitz (Jasta 30) as the victor. BUT the quoated places have a distance of more thant 20 km between them (perhaps Russ has additional information).

Thorsten

Interesting; Seems that both Cecil and my pilot George Thomson (74 Squadron) were both downed by Pfalz aircraft.

[Croix de Guerre]

Here is the name of another one of the pilots in the group from Karlsruhe:

Henry Seymour Collett - Born 3/14/1893, 148 Squadron, shot down and wounded June 17, 1918. Who claimed him?

[R Gannon]

Hi guys

In defence of Alex, I think it is worth quoting from his Evaluation of German Victory Claims section of his original HITEB:

'For this stage of the research the author is greatly indebted to Alex Imrie and, in Germany, Doctor Gustav Bock, who made available their vast store of German material and formidible knowledge of all things appertaining to the Luftstreitkraft.' Bold is mine.

And I don't read German either, but I know enough to make my way through my copy of Natrichtemblatt in regards claims. And I know also, and indeed anyone who is worth their salt should know, that Sopwith-1 is an all purpose German identification for any British single seat tractor biplane. And even without Natrichtemblatt providing times or location, the FlakBttr 7 claim, regardless of the rank of its kommandeur, must refelect the downig of Garrett.

As to Marsden - he was part of a ten strong 210 Sqn formation which mixed it with 23 EA of Jasta's 7, 20 & 30 to NE of Pleogsteert between 0820 & 0835 BT - in addition to Marsden pow, Lt W Breckenridge was also pow (wia) driven down by 3 EA and Lt Jenkins had his Camel shot about, but returned ok. These clearly reflect three 'Camel' claims in same area & time by Js 30's von der Marwitz as stated in TSTBF, as well as Js 20's Ltn Helton (also claimed by Ltn Jacob's of Js 7) and Js 30's Ltn Katzlstein. One would assume Helton & Jacobs were two of the three pilots seen on tail of Lt Breckenridge.

Cheers Russ

[Croix de Guerre]

Wow! Thank you Russ for that great reply and information. I am pulling these names from letters and a post-war narrative by George Thomson of 74 Squadron. His six roomates at Karlsruhe were "Ab" Garrett (56 Squadron), Cecil "Bud" Marsden (210 Squadron), Henry Collett (148 Squadron), Hubert Mason, John R. Gregory (105 Squadron) and a man he refers to as "Jones".

[digit]

"Having a peep at that other site - always good for a laugh ...The late Dr Bock established for me that this victory over Garrett was positively awarded to Flakb7 by an intelligence officer."

"I will, however, hold up my hands and admit that I did not check the sections of the N der L which lists, separately from the Jasta victories, the flak victories. I was incorrect that I did not check the flak sections, otherwise I would have spotted that it was a Vice-Wachmeister given, not a Vfw."

Alex Revell in GWAF


Dear Alex,
we all make mistakes. Fine, that you are now with us. But what had the poor Dr. Bock with all this to do? He would never mix up a Vize-Feldwebel with a Vize-Wachtmeister: Gustav Bock was an officer with a SS-Artillerie-Regiment.

[R Gannon]

Croix

Glad you found my post of interest. I'll look into my crystal ball re Henry Collett and see what I have.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Digit

I respect the efforts of Dr Bock and his membership of an SS Artillerie Rgt is no problem with me.

Cheers Russ

[frontflieger]

Henry Seymour Collett - Born 3/14/1893, 148 Squadron, shot down and wounded June 17, 1918. Who claimed him?

Hi, there are two possibilities:


2. Kompanie Flamga 90 (Flugabwehr-Maschinengewehr-Abteilung = Anti Aircraft Machin Gun Unit)
Flak-Offizier der M. G. des 9. Reserve-Korps - cooperating with Scheinwerferzug (floodlight) 268 and O.Flak-S-Zug 768


Both claimed one F.E. like No. 148 Sqn RAF was flying.

Thorsten

[Croix de Guerre]

Croix

Glad you found my post of interest. I'll look into my crystal ball re Henry Collett and see what I have.

Cheers Russ

Thanks Russ, Here is some info on Collett;

Henry Seymour Collett was born at Beckwith Road in Camberwell on 14.02.1893 and was eight years old at the time of the Dulwich census of 1901 when he and his family were living at 344 Uplands Road.

Sir Henry Seymour Collett, 2nd Bt. was educated at Bishop's Stortford College, Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England. He fought in the First World War, where he was wounded twice, and became a POW.3 He gained the rank of Lieutenant in the service of the Suffolk Regiment and Royal Flying Corps. He succeeded to the title of 2nd Baronet Collett, of Bridge Ward in the City of London [U.K., 1934] on 23 November 1938. He was decorated with the National Order of the Ivory Coast in 1962. He was decorated with the Commander, Royal Order of the Phoneix of Greece in 1963.

Henry Collett flew Sopwith Camels with No. 148 Squadron and was shot down while flying over German occupied territory and captured on June 17, 1918. He was wounded and taken prisoner by the Germans and placed in the Kriegsgefangenenlager at Landshutt am Isar in Bayern (Munich). In a letter to his future wife Ruth he wrote "There is no need for you to worry at all about me. We are receiving the very best treatment and we are all quite well and bright. You must not believe what you read in the newspapers". Interestingly, the next section of the letter had been subject to censorship and had been deleted.

Sir Henry died on 06.01.1971 shortly after the couple's Golden Wedding Anniversary.

[R Gannon]

CdeG

Thorston has nailed it in his post. And as he points of Collett was not a Camel driver, but an FE2 pilot - FE2d A6409 along with Lt HB Evans who departed on night bomb 2230 hrs region of Estairs - then doing yoeman services as night bombers. There is also a Gitterumf claim (German for lattice tail and often used in regards FE's) but my copt of Natrichtemblatt has a copying fault down the middle of the German Flak units. Maybe thorston can give the full name & unit.

Cheers Russ

[frontflieger]

O.K. the "Gitterrumpf" was 'forced to land' by O.-Flak-S.-Batterie 838. ;)

As far as I know "O." stands for "ortsfest" -that means: fixed to one place. :blush:

Thorsten

[R Gannon]

Thorsten

Many thanks for the explanations of German Flak terminology in your last and post #16. I presume the 'S' means schwere (heavy)?

Cheers Russ

[Croix de Guerre]

Russ, After downloading Collett's personnel record from the UK National Archives and comparing a photo of him I received from his family with a photo of him taken at Karlsruhe, it turns out that he was not a pilot but an observer.

Henry Collette is seated in the middle. His file states that he had served three years as an infantry officer. (Suffolk Regiment) Passed tests at No. 1 School of Aerial Gunnery Hythe, Jan. 1918 Passed tests as night flying observer at 192 N.T. Sqdn. Feb. 1918

If he was the observer, I wonder who the pilot was.

[Croix de Guerre]

The two other pilots seated on Collette's left and right are Hubert Mason 209 Squadron (in the maternity tunic) and George Franklin Thomson 74 Squadron.
The men standing in the rear are all unidentified but may well be Thomson's mess mates; Robert Gregory 105 Squadron, Cecil "Bud" Marsden 210 Squadron, Allan Leslie "Ab" Garrett 56 Squadron and another man named Jones who Tommy said was an observer. If anyone is able to shed some light on the identity of the men standing in the rear of this photo, I would be very grateful.

[Croix de Guerre]

Colletts pilot was 2Lt H B Evans flying FE2b A64409.
Gregory cant be 105 Sqn as they werent on the Western Front.
He might be 2 Lt RJ Gregory POW 5/6/18 20 Sqn.

Thank you for that. June 5, 1918 makes sense for the time line. What is your source for the information on Evans? Did he survive? Colletts was wounded and spent some time in hospital. If Evans did survive, he is not mentioned in the narratives I have; perhaps they were separated?

[Croix de Guerre]

Thank you for that. June 5, 1918 makes sense for the time line. What is your source for the information on Evans? Did he survive? Colletts was wounded and spent some time in hospital. If Evans did survive, he is not mentioned in the narratives I have; perhaps they were separated?

It appears that Evans did survive and that he and Collette met up again at Ingolstadt. To quote Collette; "Evans and I were shot down Monday night, 17th of June 1918 about 11 o'clock, having been lit up by search lights. We got to about one mile from our lines and landed in shell holes. At the same time as the engine was hit...I received a very slight shot in my right leg just to the left of my knee. It did no damage, clean in and clean out and all quite healed by now (July 3, 1918), and I can walk as usual. On landing we were at once captured and taken to a battalion headquarters in the cellar of a ruined house, there my wound was dressed and I had food with German officers. Evans went away and I have just met him again today and he is quite well."

The Collette Saga

[Croix de Guerre]

What book(s) would recommend for researching RFC pilots like these?

[R Gannon]

CdeG

I always love those first hand accounts.

As to books, there is really nothing for the work a day aircrew like Collett, one would have to delve into the records held at Kew in UK.

Cheers Russ

[fetubi]

What book(s) would recommend for researching RFC pilots like these?

There are actually a few night bombing anecdotal memoirs etc which you might consider - all reasonably accessible still - reprints etc.

Relating to the following night bombing units in particular are:

100 Sqn
Kingsford, AR. Night Raiders of the Air. London: The Aviation Book Club, 1939

101 Sqn
Montgomery, DH. Down The Flare Path. London: John Hamilton, 1937.

102 sqn
Levyns, JEP. The Disciplines of War. Memories of the War of 1914-18. New York: Vantage Press, 1984. (one of the best, in my opinion)

Nearly all night bombing units have published sqn histories as well -they're a bit harder to find tho.

Hope this helps.

Trevor

[jsontag]

Two Peter Hart books have quite a few first hand accounts from British Two-seater pilots and observers.

Somme Success and Bloody April, both by Peter Hart

[Croix de Guerre]

Thank you all for those suggestions I will add those to my list. What I am curious about is the source so many of you turn to for the data concerning what-pilot-was-shot-down-when-and-by-whom, etc. My reading has primarily focused on 74 Squadron and RFC training in Canada in conjunction with my research on George Thomson. Does "The Sky Their Battlefield" contain statistical information like this?