Most "successful" German fighter

[Dave Watts]

Hi all!


* I got to thinking about what was the most "successful" German fighter.* Many may first react by saying the Fokker D.VII.





* Well, maybe....maybe not.





I pulled production numbers from Windsock Datafile Nr.9 for the Fokker D.VII, and it appears that roughly 2539 may have been accepted, and some


certainly would have seen very limited service before cessation of hostilities.* I next pulled numbers for the Albatros D.V and D.Va from


Windsock Datafile Nr.3.* It appears that 2562 D.V-Va's were delivered, and saw more than their fair share of active duty, many being utilized far into 1918.





* I'm thinking by the sheer numbers, and length of service the Albatros had, that it may very well stand a good chance of having brought down more aircraft than the Fokker, but that's where I'm asking for anyone's opinion on this.* I don't know if there are documented listing records showing how many victories are attributed to what type of aircraft.





Happy New Year,


Dave Watts*





PS:Another interesting way to look at it, would be to consider what aircraft shot down the most, for how many were produced. Something akin to; a built to kill ratio. My bet may be on the Fokker Dr.I.

[Barrett]

I recall Dr. Frank Olynyk's statement that his list of German aerial victories for WW I showed something like THREE THOUSAND kills credited to the D-VII. Since the Camel reportedly had fewer than 1,300 for a year longer in combat, that's an awesome figure. Frank, if you're looking, please confirm or correct my memory...

[stephen]

I'm certainly a believer in the abilities of the DVII, but for Pete's sake... that's 40% of all the combined Allied aircraft on the entire western front at any given time. Then, of course, you also get into the discussion of German overclaiming - which DID happen on a regular basis and significantly skewed their final kill results, regardless of the theories of German perfection that so many still hopelessly cling to.

I would rate the Albatros series as a more successful aircraft, but on an entirely different basis... longevity. The DVII was nearing the end of it's viability toward the end of the war. Hence, the development of the Schuckert series, the Junkers and the Fokker DVIII. It was still a dominant and effective aircraft, but the end was in sight after less than 9 months in combat. Not so for the Alb series, which went from late '16 until the end of the war, when it was still a servicable aircraft that could put up a decent fight when well handled. From the standpoint of the servicability and viable service life of the aircraft, the Albatros was king of WWI for the Germans. Somewhat akin to the F-4 Phantom, which IMHO, is the greatest (by that definition) combat aircraft of all time. They should STILL be flying that thing.

[Mark]

Stephen, The longevity issue aside, remember that MvR was already @#$%ing about the Alb D's being inferior to the new British fighters (Tripehounds, Camels, SE-5's) EARLY in 1917. Undoubtedly the Alb series remained in service only because no one in Deutchland could envision a better ride.

[C.Grube]

Most successful?....mmmmmm?
I guess that would depend on what determines success in a fighter a/c; longevity, kill ratio, popularity (with pilots), safety record, maintainability, etc.
The question is too broad for me, sorry! However, if we are allowed to catagorize, then here is my opinion:

Longevity - Albatross series

Kill ratio - Don't know!

Popularity - Fok. D-7 (easy to fly, good performer)

Safety Record - Fok. D-7 (low numbers lost to ground handling accidents, and in-flight failures)

Maintainabilty - mmmm!....tough one, but I would have to say one of the Fokker products for sure. I know that the construction process for the Albatross and Phaltz series was detailed and time consuming with their plywood fueselages. I can only imagine field maintenance on these machines was probably not the easiest. However, with the Fokker products, simplicity was of great importance. Self supporting wings, and simple steel tubing fuselages made these planes strong and easy to maintain. Yup...that about does it!

C.Grube

[Frank_Olynyk]

Barrett,
I have the figures in a file at home, as part of my forthcoming German WW1 Victory List. I will fish it up tonight, and supply it tomorrow. May have to e-mail it direct to Scott for him to handle, depending on the length.

Frank.

[Leo Sweeney]

The Allies must have considered the DVII as the most to be feared if not the most successful. The Treaty of Versailles specified that all be surrendered. "In erster Linie alle apparate DVII"

[John G]

If your talking most successful (which is pretty vague) couldn't you make a strong case for the Fokker E series. Despite being a mediocre aircraft they dominated the skies for a time and changed the shape of fighting tactics. Not many fighters are labled a scourge after all. If your talking best - different story but most successful - maybe the early Fokker.

[Mark]

You make a good point John, but imho the success of the Eindecker had alot more to do with the fact that it carried synchronized guns its opponents didn't have. I've never seen any complimentary comments about this plane by its pilots for any reason other than its revolutionary weapon.

[John G]

Excellent point Mark..no debating the Fok E.I's merits - just its impact...I guess we just need to define "successful". Successful it was in its role at the time (as you pointed out thanks to the weapons it carried) but best aircraft -hardly.

[Dave Watts]

My thought originally was, which German aircraft brought down the most enemy aircraft?
That is why the first aircraft to come to mind were the Fokker D.VII and the Albatros D.V/Va, simply by the fact that they were produced in such large numbers, and they had dominant roles in frontline utilization. My original inclination was the Albatros, by the fact of such a long active service life. I have a feeling that the allied loses, in actual planes lost, was greater in 1918 than in 1917, does anyone have those numbers of total losses for the allies in 1916, 1917, and 1918? If there was a great increase allied losses in 1918 versus 1917, then the D.VII may get the edge.
Another interesting angle of the "most successful" would be, (as I mentioned before), kill ratio; number of aircraft built to number of aircraft brought down, again I think the Dr.I would take the cake.
If someone has a list of downs to aircraft, (as earlier posted), I would certainly appreciate a copy to be e-mailed to me.
The comment of the eindecker is well taken, at certain times, certain aircraft were the "most successful". In their moment they were "the" airplane. It's not the same as pitting Joe Louis against Mike Tyson, airplane development gets better with time. Which leads to a much more open field of what would be the most superior German fighter aircraft of the war. Siemens D.IV, Fokker D.VIIF, and Fokker D.VIII come to mind.

[Barrett]

Forumites: good topic with lotsa educated comments. Am glad to see that Dr. Frank will pitch in, because when it comes to air combat stats, he be da man.
Most successful? As noted, we require a definition of terms. I quarrel with some well-regarded European aviation writers who claim the MiG-21 is the most successful jet fighter just because so damn many were built. That's fine if you're from marketing: if you're in the cockpit looking back at your 5 to 7 o'clock and can't see the bogey, it ain't worth a damn. Personally, I abhor the concept that any fighter with a negative kill ratio is somehow "successful."
As for Albatri, consider MvR's 1918 comments: "a tired old bus" or somesuch. The type was kept in combat well beyond its prime but was available in numbers--despite well-known structural faults. Those who attend our CFM event in February will see the common field mod: an extrnal brace running from the V strut to the leading edge of the wing to reduce flutter and vibration. I suspect but cannot prove that the sesquiplane design of the Pfalz, while externally similar to the Albatros, was better constructed. That might be one reason that some well-regarded folks like Berthold preferred the Pfalz.
BTW: I have it on good authority that Billy Bishop never flew a Pfalz, and MvR never shot down an Albatros. "Can we just get along?"

[Michael Skeet]

Barrett: you're right about the Pfalz being more structurally sound than the various v-strut Albatri. The Pfalz D-III, despite its appearance, actually had a two-spar lower wing, which of course made it much stronger. The v-strut Albatros reminds me a lot of the Bf-/Me-109 of WWII: a successful design kept in service long past its best-by date.

As for the other comment: Maybe we could just ask people to flag their subject lines with a rating code, like JPDT (for juvenile, personality-driven thread) so that the rest of us would know which items to just ignore. I find myself getting tired, not just of the sniping, but of the whole ace-as-movie-star content of far too many of the threads lately.

[C.Grube]

Barrett,

Please tell me, what is the "CFM event" in February you alluded to in your past reply?

C.Grube

[Frank_Olynyk]

Barrett,
According to my file of aircraft types from my German WW1 Victory List, the Fokker D.VII had 2572 claims, plus (see below, somewhere). I tried to include the entire file in this message, but it was too long. So now I will try it in pieces:
983.5/0/0 ?
1/0/0 AEG C.I
1/0/0 AEG G
1/0/0 Albatros
2/0/0 Albatros C.I
1/0/0 Albatros C.II
1/0/0 Albatros C.X
57/0/0 Albatros D.I
66/0/0 Albatros D.I or D.II
1/0/0 Albatros D.I or D.II or Fokker D.3 or Halberstadt D.III
54/0/0 Albatros D.II
33/0/0 Albatros D.II or D.III
2/0/0 Albatros D.II or Halberstadt D.II
7/0/0 Albatros D.II or Halberstadt D.II/III
19/0/0 Albatros D.II or Roland D.I
891/0/0 Albatros D.III
4/0/0 Albatros D.III, D.V or Pfalz D.3
2/0/0 Albatros D.III (OAW)
115/0/0 Albatros D.III or D.V
4/0/0 Albatros D.III or D.Va
1071/0/0 Albatros D.V
21/0/0 Albatros D.V or D.Va
1/0/0 Albatros D.V or D.Va or Pfalz
20/0/0 Albatros D.V or Fokker Dr.I
10/0/0 Albatros D.V or Pfalz D.III
5/0/0 Albatros D.V or Pfalz D.IIIa
546/0/0 Albatros D.Va
23/0/0 Albatros D.Va or Fokker D.VII
8/0/0 Albatros D.Va/Pfalz D.III/IIIa
25/0/0 Albatros D.Va or Pfalz D.IIIa
1/0/0 Albatros W4
2/0/0 Aviatik C.I

End of Part One, the Letter A. Join me in Part Two, for the Letter F.

Frank

[Frank_Olynyk]

Barrett, (Part Two)

Letter B through F.
7/0/0 DFW C.V
5/0/0 Fokker D.
3/0/0 Fokker D or Halberstadt D.II or D.III
1/0/0 Fokker D.I or D.II or D.III
8/0/0 Fokker D.I or D.II or D.III or Halberstadt D.III
7/0/0 Fokker D.III
6/0/0 Fokker D.III or Halberstadt D.II/D.III/Roland D.II
5/0/0 Fokker D.III or Halberstadt D.II or Roland D.I
2572/0/0 Fokker D.VII
1/0/0 Fokker D.VII (OAW)
2/0/0 Fokker D.VII or Fokker Dr.I
237/0/0 Fokker Dr.I
5/0/0 Fokker Dr.I or Albatros D.V
3/0/0 Fokker Dr.I or Albatros D.Va
17/0/0 Fokker Dr.I or D.VII
142/0/0 Fokker E.
6/0/0 Fokker E.I
1/0/0 Fokker E.II
20/0/0 Fokker E.III
2/0/0 Fokker E.III/D.III/Halberstadt D.II/Roland D.I
3/0/0 Fokker E.IV
6/0/0 Fokker F.I
5/0/0 Friedrichshafen FF 33H
3/0/0 Friedrichshafen FF33L
1/0/0 Friedrichshafen FF43

Now we will see if the rest will fit in a message.

Frank.

[Frank_Olynyk]

Barrett, (Part Three)

Letters G through Z.

13/0/0 Gotha
3/0/0 Halberstadt CL.II
1/0/0 Halberstadt D.
3/0/0 Halberstadt D.II
58/0/0 Halberstadt D.II or D.III
16/0/0 Halberstadt D.II/D.III/Fokker D.III/Roland D.I
1/0/0 Halberstadt D.II or D.III or Roland D.III
8/0/0 Halberstadt D.II or Fokker D.3
13/0/0 Halberstadt D.III
7/0/0 Halberstadt D.III or Fokker D.III
2/0/0 Halberstadt D.III or Roland D.II or Albatros D.III
9/0/0 Halberstadt D.III or Roland D.II
15/0/0 Halberstadt D.V
2/0/0 Hannover CL.II
1/0/0 Hannover CL.IIa
1/0/0 Hansa-Brandenburg LW
9/0/0 Hansa-Brandenburg W12
5/0/0 Hansa-Brandenburg W29
2/0/0 LVG C.I
43/0/0 Pfalz D.III
5/0/0 Pfalz D.III or Albatros D.Va
191/0/0 Pfalz D.IIIa
1/0/0 Pfalz D.IIIa or Albatros D.Va or Roland
5/0/0 Pfalz D.IIIa or Fokker D.VII
5/0/0 Pfalz D.IIIa or Fokker Dr.I
35/0/0 Pfalx D.XII
1/0/0 Pfalz E.I
1/0/0 Roland C.II
17/0/0 Roland D.II
2/0/0 Roland D.IIa
4.5/0/0 Rumpler 6B1
14/0/0 Rumpler C.I
4/0/0 Rumpler C.IV
2/0/0 Siemens-Schuckert W D.III
1/0/0 Siemens-Schuckert W D.IV

That's all, there ain't no more, folks!

This is based on material sent me by Winfried Bock, the son of Gustav Bock. He based this on the (monthly?) returns of aircraft held by each unit, which I assume Gustav copied. We concentrated on the Jastas, because the FliegerAbteilungen usually had too many different types onhand at the same time. Almost all of them would have ended up as x or y or z, or worse. So they get lumped into the ? category.

Frank.

[Mark]

Based on the numbers provided by Frank, it's close but the Albatros D series were the most destructive German bird. There are 2856 credits for the Alb D's attributed to them alone, with another 143 victories that were gained by either an Alb D plane or by something else in the same squadron at the time. Of these 143, only 23 might have been done in by a D7. 2573 kills are listed for the Fokker D7. Only 243 with 8 additional possibles by the Dr1/F1. Weren't 320 of these built? Of course if we were to consider individual numbers for the D1, D2, D3, D5, D5A (why no D4 ?)..........

[Scott]

Barrett was referring to the Champlin Fighter Museum event he scheduled for next February. See the Champlin Museum Tour (http://www.theaerodrome.com/cgi-bin/forum/thread.cgi?1319,0) thread for more info.

[Dave Watts]

Fantastic info Frank! Thank you! Thank you to Mark also for doing the math. If we go for the kill ratio of number of type of aircraft built to number of accredited victories, it goes something like this.
Dr.I 320 built 243 victories .76 aircraft downed to number built.
D.VII 2539 built 2573 victories 1.01 aircraft downed to number built.
These are +/- numbers, but even so conclusions can be drawn. The D.VII certainly seems to have scored well.
I don't have knowledge of detailed particulars on Albatros or O.A.W. built D.VIIs, with regards to exactly what type of motor went into exactly which particular aircraft such as the Fokker army acceptance sheets, but with the Fokker built D.VIIs, there were few BMW powered D.VIIs compared to Mercedes powered. If desired, I could pull numbers and start a new thread. Later in the war early Mercedes motors, that for example had originally been used in a Pfalz D.IIIa, were rebuilt and reinstalled in D.VIIs at Fokker. They would have been "supped up" with higher compression domed pistons.

[G-8]

Wow--the info from Frank Olynyk is wonderful! Any similar data from the Brits or French?
Please understand I'm not (NOT) complaining, but it's regrettable that the German transcribers either didn't have or accidentally overlooked the Fokker E.V/D.VIII, which must have had a few victories.
That said, I'll repeat myself. Wow! In fighter talk, Sierra Hotel.

[Rich Hicks]

In the Windsock Datafile on the Fokker DVIII, by Peter Grosz (published 1991), he states that only one victory by a DVIII/EV pilot has been confirmed - Lt. Emil Rolff of Jasta 6, on 17 August 1918. On 19 August, he "fell victim to wing failure". He points out that there is "no concrete proof" that the DVIII saw combat in the last weeks of the war - most of the 85 listed as Frontline complement on 31 October were stored at Armee Flug Parks, awaiting replacement wings.

This was a shock to me, since the DVIII is also a favorite of mine, going back to Ed Swearingen's replica, which I read about when I was in High School (a long time ago, but I still have the article!). He was able to strike up a correspondence with Reinhold Platz, who was able to confirm several details from memory (our family doctor helped with translation). Oh well, another illusion destroyed - but it was a sleek-looking bird! Does anyone know what ever happened to this replica?

Rich

[Barrett]

Rich: odd you should ask! Swearingen's replica D.VIII sits in the WW I hangar of the Champlin Fighter Museum here in Mesa, AZ. (Ref. Scott's note of the First Aerodrome Forum Convention here 20 Feb) Doug purchased the bird from "von Swearingen" c. 1980, I believe. it still has the Warner radial engine but Doug probably has an extra rotary sitting around somewhere. Quite a sensation to sit in the machine: visibilty below is of course superb, and by craning one's neck, you can see over the top of the wing.
BTW: a History Channel program (4 Years of Thunder?) claimed the D.VIII scored the last German victory of The War, but I doubt it. Am not convinced any were still at the front in November.

[PrJs666_Blue_Max]

Funny you mention it, as I read recently that Geschwader Richthofen is flying F4's. I had to laugh when I read it, as it's about as far from the type of plane I could imagine the name Richthofen associated with. Well, except maybe the F104. Which they also flew.

Salut!
-Hermann

[Rich Hicks]

Barrett,

Good to know the DVIII found a good home. The yellowed copy of the "Tribune" weekend magazine I have shows the plane after a ground-loop incident on one of its first flights, and Ed is preparing to rebuild her.

Your statement that you doubt any DVIII were active at war's end matches the information in the Datafile. Grosz states that the combat record only shows sorties from 5-19 August, although at least one naval squadron showed some flying as late as the 22nd. In a footnote, he also disputes Gray & Thetford's "German Aircraft of the First World War", stating that "Theo Osterkamp did not obtain his 25th and 26th victories while flying a DVIII."

Rich

[Barrett]

Perhaps eventually we'll see primary documents regarding the Marine Jastas' equipment on given dates. Anyway, whether Theo Osterkamp scored in a D-VIII or not, he jumped out of an E.V during a fam hop in September '18. Three SPADs caught him and obviously there was no way he could outrun them. In fighter pilot lingo, "I said it was a good day, not a great day."

[Axel Schudak]

Hi Dave,

actually my sources indicate only some 1000 Fokker DVII (800 with the Mercedes, 200 DVIIa with the BMW).

This would give them a ratio of 2.x

To compare these numbers neglects, however, the specific situation on the front at different times. In 1918 the Allied had a vast air superiority, which includes for the Germans: more birds to shoot at.
The change in air warfare doctrin certainly plays its part, too.

Just some guesses

[Billy_Bishop]

I thought the most successful German fighter was Max Schmelling.

;)


VBR,

Al Lowe

[Shooter]

With Stephen's endorsement aside, I believe that the F-4 Phantom is a brick with wings. It is proof-positive that if one puts enough thrust behind it, one can even make a refrigerator fly!

Not considering drivers like Steve Ritchie and Randy Cunningham, I cannot imagine how a fighter jock would prefer a bird such as the F-4. Like the Albatros D-Va, the guys who flew it drove it because it was all that was available. NA's around the world would have preferred the F-8. USAF "lead wings" did not even have that much of a choice.

The Phantom was very much the least of evils, IMHO.

But I would still adore the chance to sit in a bird that had the ability to rip off it's own wings with full "AB" in level flight, which the F-4's advocates are alleged to maintain it could do.

r/s

Bill

[Dave Watts]

Axel, I'm not sure where you got your stats. Immediately after the Adlershof 1st fighter competition on Jan.23rd,
1918, Fokker was awarded a contract for 300 D.VIIs.* At or about the same
time contracts were given to Albatros to build 400 D.VIIs.* This contract
of 400 was filled at the Albatros factory in Johannisthal, ie. "Fok. D VII
(Alb.)".* The next contract for 200 D.VII"s was filled at the Ostdeutsche
Albatros Werke in Schneidemuhl, ie. "Fok. D VII. (O.A.W.)".*

According to FOKKER D.VII WINDSOCK DATAFILE 9,

Fokker "Fok. DVII"
1000 ordered
840 approx. built

Albatros "Fok. D VII (Alb.)"
1200 ordered
1000 approx. built

Albatros "Fok. D VII. (O.A.W.)"
1000 ordered
1000 approx. built

* It also lists 811 Fokker "Fok. D VIIs" accepted, but when you look at the
table with serial numbers assigned it totals 839.* And if that is not
confusing enough my total in my posting listed 736.* I will have to go back
to the acceptance sheets to see what I missed, (I don't believe much).* I
know that the first 21 were accepted in Feb. and or March, and those
records have been lost, so I couldn't know who made the acceptance flights
on those, (bringing my total up to 756).

[Axel Schudak]

The numbers come from "Die deutschen Militaerflugzeuge 1910-1918", Kroeschel & Stuetzer, Wilhelmshaven 1977.
The best book I have yet seen about the German types. They usually give exact numbers for "delivered" planes (nor ordered, build, or flown), but usually those types still in production at the end of the war have only estimations. These are ca. 800 for the DVII and ca. 200 for the DVIIa
These numbers go conform with Kenneth Munsons "Fighters 1914-1919", which states 760 in service in September 18 (which would fit into the 1000 total). He states that 840 total where delivered by Fokker, while 785 where ordered by Albatros and 975 where ordered by OAW. The difference may be between ordered and delivered planes. Most orderes (with some few exceptions) where cancelled immediately in November. Since Germany had less than 2000 servicable frontline planes in November, I think it is safe to assume that only roughly 1000 DVII got to the front. These should be the numbers used for the calculation.

best regards

Axel

[Barrett]

Shooter et al: actually the Bundesluftwaffe still flies F-4Fs (NOT to be confused with F4F Wildcats) and will have them awhile longer. The USAF took a long time to realize that the way to exploit the Phantom was its excellent vertical performance. When F-8 Crusader pilots were transferred (kicking and screaming, with a door knob in each hand and heel marks on the deck) to the Phantom community, things improved considerably. Some former F-8 guys actually came to prefer the F-4 with the extra eyes behind the pilot. The best comparison of USN/USAF use is found in "On Yankee Station" (by my best friend and me) and "Clashes" by a former USAF driver. In '72 the navy sent four F-8s to Thailand to teach the blue-suiters ACM, while in combat! "Pirate" still regrets that he didn't ignore orders that kept him out of NVN: "I'd have been an ace fershure and they'd probably have court martialed me but it woulda been worth it."

[Billy_Bishop]

I could be wrong, but I think that one of the near aces, Robin Olds with 4 kills also flew the F4 Phantom, didn't he???

It just seems to me that there were likely more than a few MiGs that went down in front of USAF and USN Phantoms.

AND from my reading, I gathered that the Israeli pilots just plain loved the F4 Phantom. Could I be wrong?

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Shooter]

Al:

I am sure that you are correct that more MiG's were bagged by Phantom drivers than any other a/c in the VN War. There were a lot more F-4's in the sky than F-8's, and the Crusaders were withdrawn from Naval Aviation some time before the hostilities ended there.

However, the victory-to-sortie ratio of the F-8 was way beyond that of the F-4, and the Naval Aviators who drove the F-8 swore by it as the "MiG Master."

Barrett raises a very sound point when he mentions the advantage of having an extra set of eyes in the Phantom being a distinct advantage. The presence of the "heavy-breathers" in the back-seats of the F-4's doubled the chances of picking up a bad-guy at six o'clock (since most downed fliers never see the dude who bagged them, the edge a back-seater gives you is obvious).

I don't know about the IAF's affection of the F-4, but considering that they had nothing which would compare with Phantoms when they drew them, I suppose that it would not be surprising if they did adore them.

Don't get me wrong, Al...the F-4 wasn't all bad. With clean wings and AB, it was VERY fast for its time. Having two engines when most of its contemporaries had only one, it was reliable. But it was large (ergo easy to see at a long distance) and bulky. It manuevered with the grace of a pregnant hippo, and lacked internal cannon in most models (the F-8, for example, had four internal 20mm cannon). These were not good attributes for a fighter a/c.

r/s

Bill

[Barrett]

Yes, Robin flew F-4Cs in 1966-67. I believe he was one of the early USAF exponents of vertical maneuvering.
The Israelis mainly wanted the F-4 as a strike aircraft. Their initial cadre of pilots and "navigators" came to NAS Miramar in about 1970 and were determined to make the brute into a dogfighter, and they worked very hard at it. However, the sweetheart of the IAF was the Mirage, and most Israeli aces made all or most of their records on that delta-wing classic. For more info, see Peter Mersky's book from Specialty Press.