AlbertWarsawPoland
10 July 2015, 05:57 AM
Hello Gents,
My interest in WW1 began with tanks and other armored fighting vehicles and later spreaded to other WW1 subjects, including aircraft. In one of the best books on WW1 tanks I found very interesting information and there is good chance that none of the Aerodrome forumites came across it. The book is "Following the Tanks. Cambrai 20th November - 7th December 1917" by Jean-Luc Gibot and Philippe Gorczynski (http://www.tank-cambrai.com/english/the-book.php). It's hard to find and as a consequence usually expensive. The authors tried to ascertain fate of every single tank used by the British during the battle of Cambrai and the book is surely the most detailed publication in that matter. So if you're interested in WW1 subjects other than aviation, and you find this book, don't hasitate - buy it! Of course there is also info on aircraft, a 4-page chapter "In the skies over Cambrai" and aircraft, especially RFC, is mentioned in other chapters too :)
On page 62 of the book there is a story of private W.L.M. Francis, who was a gunner in a Mark IV tank. On 20th November, the first day of the battle his tank received a direct hit, so the crew abandoned it and Francis took his Lewis Gun with him. Later he and his tank driver dragged into their shallow trench two wounded British soldiers who were still exposed to enemy fire. Then a German two-seater aeroplane came over. Although his officer told him three times not to shoot, Francis disobeyed his orders and after the plane went round in a circle and for the third time came right over him, he fired. The plane was shot down. A couple of months later Francis was informed that he has been avarded Military Medal and that "the plane was commanded by the officer in charge of the whole German area on the Cambrai front, and many maps of airstrips and other intelligence fell into our hands". There are also two photos - first of Francis and his brother, second of shot down plane. The caption is: "The two-seater DFW shot down at Flesquieres by Gunner Francis, photographed on 23rd November 1917".
Now things start to become even more interesting - the photo is nearly identical to the photo that can be found at page 177 in C&C US 10/2 (article: "German Aircraft - Down in British Lines: RFC/RAF "G" Numbers, Part 1, by W.R. Puglisi). There is no doubt that this is one and the same plane, both photos were taken from the same distance and angle, probably by the same person, only different British soldiers are near the plane. In Puglisi's article this plane is identified as captured G 91, DFW 4977/16 of FA(A) 269 shot down by Capt. James Martin Child of No. 84 Squadron on 22 November 1917 near Flesquieres. Leutnant Steiner and Flieger Elser were both made prisoners. I know that Capt. Richard Watson Howard was given shared victory although he timed the combat 10 minutes later and in a slightly different location (Graincourt). Another who claimed captured DFW on 22 November 1917 during the Battle of Cambrai was Roy Cecil Phillips.
So we have one captured German DFW and claims by one tanker (Francis) and three (Child, Howard, Phillips) airmen.
The story of Francis seems reliable - the guy was awarded for shooting down the two-seater airplane, which was captured. Only G 91 fits this. There is some problem with the date - in "Following the Tanks Cambrai" it seems it's 20th November, in case of all airmen it's 22th November. Could Steiner, who became POW be called "the officer in charge of the whole German area on the Cambrai front" as in Francis' story? And these two photos plus the fact that in FtTC it is stated that the photo was taken on 23th November, so after claims by the airmen...
And even if we count victories by Child and Howard as one shared, claim by Phillips was separate, so there should be two captured DFW planes thanks to airmen, not counting that shot down by Francis. But we have only one airplane on G list that fits all these claims. Probably overclaiming, but we also know that some captured airplanes were not put on the G list.
By the way, in above mentioned chapter in FtTC ("In the skies over Cambrai") victories by Child, Howard and Phillips are all mentioned. Also victory by F.G. Huxley, but it was probably Albatros scout. However, please check the thread about Huxley, it also has some info which can help us with G 91: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3098
And one more link: http://dis.ijs.si/mitjal/genre/online/data/file0555.htm
Especially interesting part: "Lieutenant R.W. Howard of 2 Sqn AFC shot down a DFW near Graincourt for his first victory. Captain R.C. Phillipps also of 2 Sqn AFC scored his first of 15 victories on this day, shooting down a DFW. Both enemy aircraft shot down by Howard and Phillipps were captured behind British lines."
What a mystery. Any ideas?
Cheers,
Albert
My interest in WW1 began with tanks and other armored fighting vehicles and later spreaded to other WW1 subjects, including aircraft. In one of the best books on WW1 tanks I found very interesting information and there is good chance that none of the Aerodrome forumites came across it. The book is "Following the Tanks. Cambrai 20th November - 7th December 1917" by Jean-Luc Gibot and Philippe Gorczynski (http://www.tank-cambrai.com/english/the-book.php). It's hard to find and as a consequence usually expensive. The authors tried to ascertain fate of every single tank used by the British during the battle of Cambrai and the book is surely the most detailed publication in that matter. So if you're interested in WW1 subjects other than aviation, and you find this book, don't hasitate - buy it! Of course there is also info on aircraft, a 4-page chapter "In the skies over Cambrai" and aircraft, especially RFC, is mentioned in other chapters too :)
On page 62 of the book there is a story of private W.L.M. Francis, who was a gunner in a Mark IV tank. On 20th November, the first day of the battle his tank received a direct hit, so the crew abandoned it and Francis took his Lewis Gun with him. Later he and his tank driver dragged into their shallow trench two wounded British soldiers who were still exposed to enemy fire. Then a German two-seater aeroplane came over. Although his officer told him three times not to shoot, Francis disobeyed his orders and after the plane went round in a circle and for the third time came right over him, he fired. The plane was shot down. A couple of months later Francis was informed that he has been avarded Military Medal and that "the plane was commanded by the officer in charge of the whole German area on the Cambrai front, and many maps of airstrips and other intelligence fell into our hands". There are also two photos - first of Francis and his brother, second of shot down plane. The caption is: "The two-seater DFW shot down at Flesquieres by Gunner Francis, photographed on 23rd November 1917".
Now things start to become even more interesting - the photo is nearly identical to the photo that can be found at page 177 in C&C US 10/2 (article: "German Aircraft - Down in British Lines: RFC/RAF "G" Numbers, Part 1, by W.R. Puglisi). There is no doubt that this is one and the same plane, both photos were taken from the same distance and angle, probably by the same person, only different British soldiers are near the plane. In Puglisi's article this plane is identified as captured G 91, DFW 4977/16 of FA(A) 269 shot down by Capt. James Martin Child of No. 84 Squadron on 22 November 1917 near Flesquieres. Leutnant Steiner and Flieger Elser were both made prisoners. I know that Capt. Richard Watson Howard was given shared victory although he timed the combat 10 minutes later and in a slightly different location (Graincourt). Another who claimed captured DFW on 22 November 1917 during the Battle of Cambrai was Roy Cecil Phillips.
So we have one captured German DFW and claims by one tanker (Francis) and three (Child, Howard, Phillips) airmen.
The story of Francis seems reliable - the guy was awarded for shooting down the two-seater airplane, which was captured. Only G 91 fits this. There is some problem with the date - in "Following the Tanks Cambrai" it seems it's 20th November, in case of all airmen it's 22th November. Could Steiner, who became POW be called "the officer in charge of the whole German area on the Cambrai front" as in Francis' story? And these two photos plus the fact that in FtTC it is stated that the photo was taken on 23th November, so after claims by the airmen...
And even if we count victories by Child and Howard as one shared, claim by Phillips was separate, so there should be two captured DFW planes thanks to airmen, not counting that shot down by Francis. But we have only one airplane on G list that fits all these claims. Probably overclaiming, but we also know that some captured airplanes were not put on the G list.
By the way, in above mentioned chapter in FtTC ("In the skies over Cambrai") victories by Child, Howard and Phillips are all mentioned. Also victory by F.G. Huxley, but it was probably Albatros scout. However, please check the thread about Huxley, it also has some info which can help us with G 91: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3098
And one more link: http://dis.ijs.si/mitjal/genre/online/data/file0555.htm
Especially interesting part: "Lieutenant R.W. Howard of 2 Sqn AFC shot down a DFW near Graincourt for his first victory. Captain R.C. Phillipps also of 2 Sqn AFC scored his first of 15 victories on this day, shooting down a DFW. Both enemy aircraft shot down by Howard and Phillipps were captured behind British lines."
What a mystery. Any ideas?
Cheers,
Albert