What were conditions like on Eastern Front operations?

[Willi Von Klugerman]

The air war on the Eastern Front was obviously bitter cold in the winter and uncomfortable.Though in all its a stark contrast in conditions compared to the Western Front.I was wondering what difficulties and conditions were for the aircraft and crewmen on that front for both sides?Also how often were combats in the air throughout the war on that front?

[CjBobrow]

Wait another year and you'll be able to read about it...


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[James A. Pratt III]

August Blume The Russian Military air fleet in WW I does deal with air operations in the East. Sadly its full of errors. Volume 2 has a list of claims and losses. I will be reading your books one day CJB and have one OTF East front article on the air attacks on the Russian battleships Slava and another that has been sent in.

[josquin]

August Blume The Russian Military air fleet in WW I does deal with air operations in the East. Sadly its full of errors. Volume 2 has a list of claims and losses. I will be reading your books one day CJB and have one OTF East front article on the air attacks on the Russian battleships Slava and another that has been sent in.

Since August Blume cannot respond to your assessment of his work,
I feel a responsibility to comment given his many contributions over
the years to The Forum. Blume noted that the book, "The Imperial
Russian Air Service" by Victor Kulikov & Alan Durkota (1995) was
full of errors. Blume's objective was to research and present a
factually sound account of the Imperial Russian Air Service, and
he devoted many years to this task. Great War researchers are
challenged by the necessity to work with records not only a century in age,
but often fragmentary, contradictory, or non-existent. No doubt
errors can be found in Blume's work, but stating"its [it's?] full of errors" seems unlikely. I look forward to Bobrow's forthcoming book for
new sources, clarifications and, possibly, corrections.
Regards,

Josquin

[MikeMeech]

The air war on the Eastern Front was obviously bitter cold in the winter and uncomfortable.Though in all its a stark contrast in conditions compared to the Western Front.I was wondering what difficulties and conditions were for the aircraft and crewmen on that front for both sides?Also how often were combats in the air throughout the war on that front?

Hi

I thought I would add a couple of statements from captured (by the British)German airmen from their interrogation reports that refer to the Eastern Front. These are from the UK National Archives AIR 1/2141/209/1/50.
First from a Lt. who was an Observer with '4th Kampfgeschwader' captured (pilot KIA due to crash) on 21 January 1917, who:

"Said that Eastern front was much preferred to Western front largely because morale on Eastern front much better."

Rather more of interest is the comments of a Cpl. pilot of the '26th Flight' who was captured (observer KIA, thrown out of aircraft) on 20 May 1917. The report states:

"Prisoner had been carrying out contact patrol on the Eastern front, and he stated there it was very much easier as the ground was not so cut up. He stated that he had several times carried out contact patrol by moonlight, friendly troops signalling their presence with lamps."

The usual caveats apply to statements by POWs. I hope that is of interest.

Mike

[MASTIFF]

Mentioning that a book contains errors is not necessarily a criticism of the book or its author. Merely a statement of fact. In actuality, virtually every book contains errors, for the reasons noted above by josquin.

See Graeme's "100 years ago" threads for the number of corrections being made to some otherwise excellent books. Hindsight and new research can enhance pretty much any previous works.

Cheers,
Tony

[Graeme]

And see the corrections and additions to my posts!

I never believe the hype of a book etc said to be "the last word in..." since that statement is true for as long as the first mistake to be noticed or the first piece of new data unearthed. All any of us can say, me especially, with any honesty is, "this is what I've got, up to today's date."

I liaised with Augie on unfortunately few occasions before his death and he was always willing to provide corrections and updates on what he had given me and I am sure that had he been given more time, he would have updated and corrected his published work.

Graeme

[James A. Pratt III]

Books which deal with German airman who flew in the Eastern front

Has Schroder "A German Airman Remebers"
MVR The Red air fighter which is in archive.org

Having read a number of A Blume articles in C&C and OTF I was impressed with his research ect when I bought his 2 volume set the RMAF I expected the same when I read it I was disappointed I found a book that really needed editing for starters:

there are duplicate photos in volume 1 on pages 57 and 89; 212 and 234; 256 and 281; and 116 and 201

some errors in Volume 1:
page 27 1906 mutiny on the armored cruiser Potemkin real the Potemkin was a battleship and the mutiny was in 1905. note the movie Battleship Potemkin is on youtube

page 31 has General A.A. Polivanov as War Minister when he was assistant war Minister

Page 114 has Przemysl surrendering on 14 October 1914 the real date was 22 march 1915 which is mentioned on page 137

page 137 has the airship LZ34 lost in March 1915 on page 142 it is lost on 21 May 1915 which is the correct date

page 141 the Gorlice-Tarrnow offensive has 1500 German and Austrian guns firing over 700,000 shells at the Russians. This is from Alfred Knox's book "With THE Russian Army 1914-1917". This is what the Russians told Knox. In reality the German and Austrians only had around 1000 guns and mortars.

I could go on there are a lot more. I will admit there is a lot of usefull information in these books. Someone should have edited them before they were printed.

[James A. Pratt III]

For the Gorlice-Tarrnow offensive
Austira-Hungary's last war Vol 2 p 277 artillery 733 Light 175 Medium and 24 Heavy guns and 70 minewefer=1002

Der Weltkrieg vol 7 page 372 German 352 light and 152 heavy Austrian 350 light and 103 heavy= 957

the book "Breakthrough the Gorlice-Tarrow campaign 1915 page 46 has the germans stockpiling over 300,000 shells

I will have more errata later.

[James A. Pratt III]

Some errata for the book RMAF in WW I Vol 1
P17 the Ruslka the wreck has been found with the bow stuck in the mud standing straight up.
p112 August 1914 the Russian 1st army had the 2nd, 3rd,4th and 20th KAOs and the Russian 2nd army had the 1st,6th,15th,21st and 23rd KAOs
p113 26 Aug ust 1914 airship ZV raid on Mlawa Russian Casualties according to Knox 6 KIA and 14 WIA
p114 should be Imperial not Royal Highness
p 123 the Imperator Aleksander I and Imperator Nikoai I were passenger liners not cruisers before they were converted to seaplane carriers.
Osovets fortress Tsar Nicholas II visited it on 25 Sept (OS)/ 8 Oct (NS) 1914 according to his letter to his wife Alexandra
p125 Russian plans were for a offensive into Eastern Germany not East Prussia
p151 War minister General V.A. Sukhomlinov was not arrested on 24 July 1915 see his wiki bio and the book "The Foe Within"
p179 13 Aug 1916 rfa 500 bomb operation VGO II on the Schlok railroad RML 1 aborts
p187 picture airship LZ 81 not LZ 91 (looks like a typo)
pp 193-195 R- plane RMA 1 (ex VGO I) operations 13 Aug 16 abort 15 Aug Schlok railroad 16 Aug Lebara seaplane base, 17 Aug Kemmern troop camp and 2 ships bombed, Runo Island naval air base was not bombed because it could not be located in the dark. 24 Aug abort 28 Aug crash on take off. according to the book "The German Giants"
p196 the Russian battleship Slava was missed during the 12 Sep 16 attack. There is a article on the attacks on the Slava in OTF
p199 25/26 Sep 16 LZ 101 operation according to OTF 11-2. The machine gun in the picture is a Masden not a colt
p202 picture of the Russian Crusier Rossia taken in August 1904 according to wiki
pp218-9 the airships L35 and L38 operation was on 28/29 Dec 16 targets Revel or Helsingfors ect.
p219 General Gurko was acting chief of staff from 16 Nov 16 to 3 mar 1917 because General Alekseev was ill
p222 Jan 1917 General D.S. Shuvaev was fired as War Minister and replaced by general M.A. Belyaev. As for General A.A. Polivanov he was fired as war minster in march 1916

[CjBobrow]

Some errata for the book RMAF in WW I Vol 1
P17 the Ruslka the wreck has been found with the bow stuck in the mud standing straight up.
p112 August 1914 the Russian 1st army had the 2nd, 3rd,4th and 20th KAOs and the Russian 2nd army had the 1st,6th,15th,21st and 23rd KAOs
p113 26 Aug ust 1914 airship ZV raid on Mlawa Russian Casualties according to Knox 6 KIA and 14 WIA
p114 should be Imperial not Royal Highness
p 123 the Imperator Aleksander I and Imperator Nikoai I were passenger liners not cruisers before they were converted to seaplane carriers.
Osovets fortress Tsar Nicholas II visited it on 25 Sept (OS)/ 8 Oct (NS) 1914 according to his letter to his wife Alexandra
p125 Russian plans were for a offensive into Eastern Germany not East Prussia
p151 War minister General V.A. Sukhomlinov was not arrested on 24 July 1915 see his wiki bio and the book "The Foe Within"
p179 13 Aug 1916 rfa 500 bomb operation VGO II on the Schlok railroad RML 1 aborts
p187 picture airship LZ 81 not LZ 91 (looks like a typo)
pp 193-195 R- plane RMA 1 (ex VGO I) operations 13 Aug 16 abort 15 Aug Schlok railroad 16 Aug Lebara seaplane base, 17 Aug Kemmern troop camp and 2 ships bombed, Runo Island naval air base was not bombed because it could not be located in the dark. 24 Aug abort 28 Aug crash on take off. according to the book "The German Giants"
p196 the Russian battleship Slava was missed during the 12 Sep 16 attack. There is a article on the attacks on the Slava in OTF
p199 25/26 Sep 16 LZ 101 operation according to OTF 11-2. The machine gun in the picture is a Masden not a colt
p202 picture of the Russian Crusier Rossia taken in August 1904 according to wiki
pp218-9 the airships L35 and L38 operation was on 28/29 Dec 16 targets Revel or Helsingfors ect.
p219 General Gurko was acting chief of staff from 16 Nov 16 to 3 mar 1917 because General Alekseev was ill
p222 Jan 1917 General D.S. Shuvaev was fired as War Minister and replaced by general M.A. Belyaev. As for General A.A. Polivanov he was fired as war minster in march 1916

James this is some interesting errata... in some cases you have citations of source material others not... also keep in mind just because your source may differ it does not necessarily disprove another in fact they could be both wrong... that said even first tier primary source material is subject to scrutiny... I'm not saying your "corrections" are not valid... thanks for sharing!

[Pips]

Wait another year and you'll be able to read about it...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

As Arte Johnson used to say... Very Interesting! :)
Will definitely keep an eye out for your book Cj.

[James A. Pratt III]

Good point Cj:
p17 the Ruslka is from Warship magazine
p112 Blume letter at UTD Russian KAOs were attached to corps of the same number.
p114 HIH Grand Duke Alexander M was a Imperial highness not Royal Highness. This Russia not England. Brussilov who wrote this would have gotten a chewing out for this.
pp123 and 270 the Imperator Alexander I and Imperator Nicolai I were renamed Republican and Aviator after the Feb/Mar 1917 revolution. in 1918 the germans seized them after WW I the British seized them and handed them over to the Whites. Post Russian Civil war the French got them and renamed them Lamartine and Pierre loti. The Lamartine was later renamed Khai Dinh and sunk by USAAF aircraft of Vietnam on 22 Nov 1942. The Pierre Loti was renamed Southern Seas during WW II and wrecked off the coast of Gabon 12 Dec 1941 wiki mostly.
pp218-9 L35 and L38 the book "The Zeppelin in Combat"
p221 jan 1917 was not the first time Russian troop refused to enter battle. See Austria-Hungary's last war Vol 5, The End of the Russian Imperial Army, and Carphian Disaster.
p252 the airship SL 10 was lost on 27 July 1916 not 1917 OTF 11-2
p222 the DFW RI bombing operation was on 13 June 1917 not January see the book "The German Giants"
p286 for more of the Evpatio massacre see The Cheka Lenin's political Police and Red Terror in Russia"
p237 22 may 1917 not 16 April 1917 is when General Aleksee was replaced by General Brusilov as chief of staff do to his arguing with the provisional government not ill health and work. book "Between War and Revolution"
p194 The Imperial Residence Defense Otryad renamed the Petrograd AO has it renamed the 38th KAO p277 has the Petrograd AO renamed the 4th Socialist AO in Nov 1917. The book Soviet Aircraft 1917-1941 also has the Petrograd AO renamed the 4th Socialist AO (I know !?)

[Barrett]

Many thanks for the detailed corrections and their sources. Always helps to insert an Errata sheet in the particular volume.

[James A. Pratt III]

Thanks Barrett. Here is some more errata:
Vol I P162 the German airship did not bomb Balitisky Port on 10 Sept 1915 German wiki has both its bombing raids on Osel . The book Schutte-Lanz Airship design has Osel and Saaremaa Islands.

RMAF Vol II
24.8.14 the FA 8 loss happened in the West this unit was with the german 6th Armee CGAS
6.2.16 It was the German submarine UB 7 that missed the Russian seaplane carriers Imperator Aleksander and Nicholai I The Russian Fleet 1914-1917 and North of Gallipoli
10/11.3.16 the shoot down in the positions of the 1st Guards Infantry Division happened on 11.3.15 according to "Diary of the Commander of the Russian Imperial Guard
27.7.16 Finke and Freytag were with FFA 17 not FFA 14 and were killed in the West when their plane was rammed by a Nieuport on N 38 see CGAS, FASWC and Flying Section 17

[James A. Pratt III]

RMAF Vol II:
Duplicate photos on pages 22 and 170
This book has some casualties not mentioned in CGAS and omits some casualties mentioned in the CGAS.
I also have a copy of the Austrian casualties from the 1914 -16 period from a copy of the Austrian NB at UTD most are mentioned in this book. However there are a number that are not and there are others that are mentioned on different dates. This could be do to a mixture of typos or wrong dates do to the fact the Russians still used the OS calendar that was 13 days behind the NS calendar used by the Germans and Austrians. Note the Rumanians still used the OS calendar. I am just going to mention the Austrian loss differences since I would say most or all people should have access to CGAS.

12.8.14 Flik 14 aircraft lost engine trouble crew gets home ok not in RMAF mentioned in the books "A Mad Catastrope" and "Collison of Empirs"

14.8.14 Flik 1 2 POWs NB 15.8.14 loss name of plane "Dreadnought" from Austor-hungarian Army Aircraft of WW I"

24.8.14 in NB not RMAF Flik 14 Obltn Manfred Georievic killed

25.11.14 Obltn Adalbert Feszl Flik 14 killed

7.12.14 Flik 15 Heide and Henke POW NB has 6.12.14 also on this date and not in the RMAF it has Obltn Alexander Schon of this unit POW and Flik 7 having Hptm Robert Von Kaiserfield (P) and Oltn Heinrich Scharner (O) POWs and Hpt Franz Smicka WIA . One of these men was taken prisoner by the Russian I Guards Corps.

17.12 .14 Flik 3 2 POW NB has 16.12.14

[James A. Pratt III]

more RMAF V2 errata:

13.3.15 two aircraft of Flik 11 FTL and pilots Obltn Schescherko and Obltn Schmoczer POW. Aus NB no Schescherko and both the NB and the RMAF have a Obltn Von Schmoczer of Flik 10 and his on observer Hpt Emil Kumstat shot down by ground fire and taken POW 6.7.15

19.3.15 Flik 11 Fwbl Hold POW Aus NB Herman Hold POW 22.3.15

28.4.15 not in RMAF in Aus NB Flik5 Kpl Heinrich Wukowitsch (P) and Obltn Abton Morocutti (O) killed

23.7.15 not in RMAF in Aus NB Obltn Bela Von Losonczy (P) Flik 15 WIA

28.7.15 not in RMAF in Aus NB Obltn Milorad Taraochia (O) Flik15 WIA

21.12.15 not in RMAF in Aus NB Res Lt Georg Kraigher (P) Flik 7 POW

13.1.16 not in RMAF in Aus NB Obltn Stefan Horwath (P) and Obltn Prasnicki (O) Flik 11 POW

[James A. Pratt III]

The Austrian official history is online at www.comroestudios.com/StanHanna in both English and German sadly it has very little on aviation matters also see Austia-Hungary's last war 1914-1918.

RMAF Vol 1 page 217 photo of Nicholas II and family visiting Sevastopol the photo was taken on 25 or possibly 26 may 1916. The man in the rear center with the white beard in a khaki uniform is possibly Admiral Ivan K Grigorvich the Naval Minister the two women in the picture are most likely the Tsars eldest daughters Olga and Tatania.

RMAF Vol 2 from the Austrian NB:
18 Jan 16 Zgf Johann Griener (P) and Obltn Eugen Kaiser (O) Flik 5 POWs

6.2.16 the submarine that fired and missed at the Russian fleet was the UB 7 sources "the Russian Fleet 1914-1917" and "North of Gallipoli"



20 Feb 16 Flik 10 (P) OK & (O) DOI Aus NB has it on 21.2.16

9 July The Book "A German Airman Remembers" has a FFA 58 Albatros C 2 WIA do to Russian AA aircraft CTL

24 Sep 16 Flik 10 Reskadett Hans Loffler WIA and Flik 27 Res.Kadett Dr Ernst paul WIA

From Air Aces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire:

18 Jan 16 Flik 14 Fw J Busa WIA Russian AA

7 jan 17 Flik 1 Hpt O Jindra WIA Russian AA