Kurt Wüsthoff

[rammjaeger]

Dear Forumites,

I have some questions related to the ace Kurt Wüsthoff:
a) In ATL was written Wüsthoff was born in 1897 but Zuerl wrote in "Pour le Mérite Flieger" he was born in 1898! Which date is right?

B) Wüsthoff is listed with 27 and one u/c in ATL but with 33 by Zuerl. I guess Zuerl tried to upgrade the number as in other cases too but maybe there are other 5 unconfirmed victories which are not known until now. Any idea?

c)Zuerl claimed Wüsthoff was send home for recovering in February (I assume a longer stay because of Wüsthoffs nervous problems) but W. achieved a victory on 10th March 1918 ("ATL"). So I would think he was send home after this last victory OR earlier than February. Any info or opinion?

d) Are the circumstances of Wüsthoffs last fight against the British squadron on 17.June 1918 more detailed known? Did he become immediately prisoner of the French on the ground or did the Brits hand him over to a French prisoner camp?

e) Zuerl claimed Wüsthoff forced down an English Sopwith on 27.February (no year given) near Dadizeele in the German lines but I guess he is meaning the unconfirmed victory of Wüsthoff on 27.July 1917. Is there anything known about counterclaims which prevented a confirmation for Wüsthoff?

VBR

Hannes

[Soderbaum]

Hi
This evening fight is well described in the book TSTB by Trevor Henshaw.
Shortly: 59 RFC/RNAS aircrafts of 20, 56 and 10 N sq met at least 20 German aircraft in the Roulers-Courtrai-Menin area in a Huge combat..! 16 German aircrafts were claimed and only 2 allied were reported lost.
I have no basic German information for this day except the Nachrichtenblatt and the Grub Street books The Jasta pilots and Jasta War Chronicle.
Involved in this fight from the German side were probably at least Jasta 4, 11 and 26.
3 Allied aircrafts were claimed, but it seams that only 2 were confirmed.
The Sopwith Triplane at 20:40 by Lt v Schoenebeck of Jasta 11 at Beythem within German lines as his first victory.
Both vfw Wusthoff and Lt Karl Wewer of Jasta 26 claimed one Sopwith each within German lines at 20:00 at Dadizeele and Zonnebeke respectively.
Its a possibility that they submitted claim for the same aircraft...?
The fact is that Wewers victory was confirmed as his second, and Wusthoffs was NOT confirmed.
Wewers/Wusthoffs claim was probably an SE 5 from 56 sq which were lost in this fight...time and area corresponds fairly.
This SE 5 has often been identified as Lt Zieglers of Jasta 26 second victory but the time I have does not correspond..Ziegler shot down his SE 5 in the morning(8:05) according to Grub Street.

So this is ONE possible explanation..

VBR
Gunnar

[Soderbaum]

Hi
a correction Wusthoffs and Wewers claims were at 20:40.

Gunnar

[Ron_F]

Hannes,
B) Kilduffs book, Red Baron Combat wing, he gives W. 28 victories.
C) Kilduff book, Red Baron Combat wing, states that his replacement said of Wustoff that he was dashing and a sucessful fighter pilot. That was why he was a leader of Jasta 4 at age 19. But the older pilots didnt like him much, he wasnt very sympathetic, and didnt always report his victories. That is why he was relieved by Richthofen. Both this book and 'who downed the aces in WW1?' pretty much state he was transferred to a staff job at JG1, then FEA 13 or inspectorate of Aviation,and finally jasta 15 where both report he was shot down.
D)'Who downed the aces in WW1' gives the most detailed info on his fight it seems ive found. No 24 squadron of Se5as attacked him after he seemed to have been separated from his flight. there he was force landed near Cachy. No details in that book on who was his capturers were.

In Fokker D7, Anthology I, It gives a little more detail, as that D7 he was flying is one of the more studied D7s. He landed inside the French lines and was a guest of the French Army. A/C turned over to the RAF.
E) Kilduffs book, Red Baron combat wing, gives 27 July as his 6th victory for Wustoff.

hope this helps.

Ron F.

[Jerry]

Hallo, Hannes~~~~~~~~~~~~! Du bist ein Dummkopf. Ich hasse dich. Gehe weg! Deutscher Schwein! Schmutziger Heinie! Ich will dich erschiessen. Ich will dein Hause bombardieren, und dich und dein Eltern amputieren! Zu grausam? Hehehe!

[rammjaeger]

Hallo Idioten-Jerry,

Dein Deutsch ist immer noch schlecht.
Aber was soll man von einem infantilen und kranken Hirn auch anderes erwarten?

[rammjaeger]

Thank you very much, Ron!
It helped really.

Gunnar,
thank you too.

I visit the "White stag" area today and will take some snapshots of the Inn "Kurhaus" and the former "Lahmann-Sanatorium" but I think nobody will be able to give info about Degelow, Windisch & Co.

VBR

Hannes

[Soderbaum]

Hi Hannes

A/ I have notes from another German post-war book about the Pour le Merite holders which also states that Wusthoff was born 1898 and was the second youngest reciever of PlM(after Beaulieu).

So I bet my money on Zuerl this time..

Ho Ho
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

O.K., if the other book was not using Zuerl as a source than I will believe it.

Ho ho

Hannes

[Soderbaum]

Ho Ho Hannes

b/ I think its quite possible that Wusthoff had 5 claims which went unconfirmed or confirmed to others.
On 15 Sept 1917 he claimed a Sopw-1 NW Wervicq within German lines time 19:30. Ref Bodenschatz
It looks that this Sopw-1 was counterclaimed by Lt Berkemeyer of Jasta 27 who was recorded with this victory as his third.

Bodenschatz also gives a claim on 12 March 1918 when Wusthoff shot down an SE 5 between La Bassee and Bethune(6 German Army) time 13:05. What happened to this claim I dont know..

I will look further to se if could find more..

His award of Pour le Merite on 22 Nov 1917 is NOT mentioned in the Bodenschatz KTB.

VBR
Gunnar

[Soderbaum]

Ho Ho Hannes

c/ I think Zuerl made a typo when recorded his transfer away in Febr 1918. Personally I think he was reported back in mid Februar after his Pour le Merite vacation combinited with some x-tra time for recovering...
His stay as a comander of Jasta 4 was short this time depending on the things mentioned earlier...and he was accorded to Bodenschatz transfered to the Geschwaderstab on 16 March 1918.

VBR
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

Thank you, Gunnar!

I think Bodenschatz missed also to say that Wüsthoff was captured but maybe I was missing that.

In the book by Bodenschatz Göring was quotated saying that JGI was missing 56 officers and pilots and additional 6 soldiers dead (62)and another 52 officers and pilots plus 7 soldiers (59) wounded by enemy action. Walter Heichen wrote in "Helden der Luft" (1941) JGI lost 70 men dead and 100 wounded. The difference could be losses without enemy impact or Göring was incorrect. Did you ever notice other numbers or an explanation?

[Soderbaum]

Ho Ho Hannes

Its certain that Bodenschatz missed both some victories and losses and other incidents in his book/KTB of Jagdgeshwader 1.

The explantion is simple because that "all" Adjutants had the same problem to remenber and write down significant incidents. In Bodenschatz case he also had to obtain information regarding four Jastas...The fact that the KTB is printed long after the War in bookform they could "forgotten" some information from the Original KTB..

Personally I believe that Walter Heichen numbers is more correct because of of the problems mentioned above but I dont know what background information he had ..so this is only a guess

Is this book Helden der Luft good..?

VBR
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

This book is containing contributions about aviation from the early beginning (Zeppelin, Lilienthal, Wright) to the 30s (Elly Beinhorn, Gronau, Fieseler) but focused on WWI. The most of the later articles were already discussed or published in other sources but always worth only DM 20.
The mentioned loss numbers were on page 58 in the report about MVR called "Le diable rouge".