fuselage cut out identification

[Edward]

Good morning I'm looking for help identifying two cut outs from my collection. I believe that they are from Newport's. They are the only ones that have numbers on them. These cut outs came from Menin Road Museum in Belgium. The museum closed down in 2017. I have been trying to post for mouths, I know it isn't hard if you know how. I just got it today. I will post many more. I'm currently building a DH-2. I'm about 70% finished. I was lucky to get kit 0001 from Aerodrome Airplanes. They never made kit 0002. The kit was originally a 70% size. I spent a couple of years redrawing it to 100%. I would guest that I redesign about 30%. I will post pictures now that I know how. more to come. Thanks Ed

[regular122]

I have no knowledge on the authenticity of the items but the following are the aircraft histories of the tail numbers:

B1514 was completed as N2619 on 24 Mar 1917. Listed as a Nieuport 23, it was crated and sent to 1AD on 30 Mar 1917 and given the serial B1514 on 31 Mar 17. It was taken on charge at No. 60 Squadron, RFC on 8 Apr 1917.

On 6 May 1917, it was shot down. The pilot, 2LT Carl Wesley McKissock, was part of a photo recon escort when two Albatros D types attacked and shot up his engine and gas tanks. He was forced to land near Bourlon Wood. Speculation puts Jasta 5 in that vicinity. The aircraft was struck off charge of No. 60 Squadron on 7 May 1917. Below are pictures of it when it was shot down and captured.

The aircraft was captured and 2LT McKissock was made prisoner of war at Karlsruhe. He survived the war.


B1602 was a Nieuport 23, although sometimes listed as a N.17. It was built as N3790 in April 1917 and taken on charge at 2AD by the British on 28 April and given the serial B1602.

The aircraft served briefly with No. 60 Squadron, RFC, from 1 Jun to 20 Jul 1917 and was then taken to 1AD. It then served with No. 29 Squadron, RFC from 11 August to 7 Sep 1917 until it was taken to 2AD for exchange.

On 31 Oct 1917 it was crated for Egypt and was struck off charge 14 Nov 1917.


Steve

[Edward]

WOW much better than I had hoped for. Thanks a million Ed

[Graeme]

A little more detail -

B1514 - Lieut Cyril Patteson claimed an Albatros D crashed near Vitry at 17:20/18:20 on 22 April 1917

B1602 - Lieut William Mayes Fry claimed an Albatros D out of control over Dury at 14:30/15:30 on 13 May 1917 and an Albatros D that fell behind the British lines at Gouy-en-Artois at 10:10/11:10 on 19 May; Lieut William James Rutherford claimed an Albatros D out of control [shared with B1598 and B1619] over Dury at 10:25/11:25 on 25 June 1917; Lieut Frank Ormond Soden claimed an Albatros D out of control over Graincourt at 18:30/19:30 on 3 July 1917.

Graeme

[rsanz]

Good morning I'm looking for help identifying two cut outs from my collection. I believe that they are from Newport's. They are the only ones that have numbers on them. These cut outs came from Menin Road Museum in Belgium. The museum closed down in 2017. I have been trying to post for mouths, I know it isn't hard if you know how. I just got it today. I will post many more. I'm currently building a DH-2. I'm about 70% finished. I was lucky to get kit 0001 from Aerodrome Airplanes. They never made kit 0002. The kit was originally a 70% size. I spent a couple of years redrawing it to 100%. I would guest that I redesign about 30%. I will post pictures now that I know how. more to come. Thanks Ed

Unfortunately most (if not all) of the pieces of fuselage/rudder etc fabric in this photo look incredibly suspect.

If the Menin Road Museum actually existed as such, it would appear they pretty much only exhibited forgeries. Or they were (are still?) simply a forgery factory.

I doubt this is the sort of information you were hoping for. EBay was, is and will be rife with this sort of stuff.

[Gregvan]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Rsanz. Caveat Emptor!

[Gregvan]

More can be said about McKissock's Nieuport 23 No. B'1514. McKissock was certainly claimed by Offz. Stv. Edmund Nathanael of Jasta 5. The Nieuport was captured entirely intact. It was taken over by personnel of Fl. Abt. 7, and was refurbished and repainted with German markings. The original rudder stripes and serial numbers on the rudder were painted over, and an iron Cross insignia substituted. It was used as a runabout aircraft by Paul Bäumer, who was serving as a pilot in the unit; he later became a very famous ace with Jasta Boelcke and Jasta 5.

Thus it's extremely unlikely (impossible) that the original serial number fabric from the rudder of B'1514 survived in its original state, in my opinion. In this case, the forgers didn't do enough research.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a108/Gregvan/01_Nieuport_23_B1514_60_Sqdn_McKissock_POW_6.5.17. jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gregvan/p/550bcfca-e872-4209-a55d-20157a2d917a)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a108/Gregvan/01_Nieuport_23_B1514_ebay_March_2015.jpg?width=192 0&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gregvan/p/39448d4d-a2f2-48b1-bf44-d42728e0b419)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a108/Gregvan/01_Baeumer_Nieuport23_B1514_Fl._Abt._7.jpg?width=1 920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gregvan/p/f62e87b8-1de5-4fb4-b19c-76bda9129d12)

['14-'18aviationcollector]

In this case, the forgers didn't do enough research.


Fortunately they rarely research any subject at any higher level than could be exceedingly generously described as rudimentary. Apart from the points you have already made, note that the blue National identification stripe is British blue! (VB2). By contrast most British aircraft replicas, reproduction and even restored aircraft are painted in too light a shade, which more closely resembles French Blue! The irony!

[Graeme]

Yes, the painting of the serial numbers seems terribly amateurish - possibly done freehand rather than using a stencil as would have been the case with the originals.

On the plus side, however, this post has brought to light the history of two Nieuports that might otherwise gone unobserved.

Graeme

[Gregvan]

Graeme is absolutely correct about the amateurish appearance of the serial numbers on the faked fabric; a point I was considering making as well.
Here is a detail of one of the photos of the real B'1514:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a108/Gregvan/DETAIL_1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gregvan/p/127c72eb-5150-4f90-9b1c-7a4230830dfc)


Compare it with the faked fabric piece:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a108/Gregvan/detail_3.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gregvan/p/b408d804-2f52-46ec-a2b5-0604bd6c10a7)

The real serial number had a prominent apostrophe between the B and the 1 on the central white stripe, quite typical of serial numbers of this series; I don't see it in the faked piece. The styles of the 'B' and '4' are quite different as well.

[VtwinVince]

I have to agree with the above opinions, I honestly can't see any items in the 'group shot' that look genuine. And buying from museums does not generally lend credence to any item in terms of originality.

[await]

And buying from museums does not generally lend credence to any item in terms of originality.

I posted a photo I took of an iron cross supposedly from a German WWI aircraft at the Musée de la Somme at Albert which looked highly suspect. Other Forum members agreed that it was quite dubious. I don't have a link to that thread, but it supports what VtwinVince wrote.

[Edward]

Good morning I want to thank all you have posted on these cut outs. At first hand it would seem that the cut out is not the same as in the pictures supplied and there for could be a fake. There is no arguing with this point. But why if you are going to fake a piece, why would you pick such a number. Why not pick something famous. As to the condition of these cut out, I was able to compare the materials as I had cut outs from Germany, England, France, Austria, Turkey and the US. They all have a different weave. The French weave is the most threads per inch. Most of these cut outs were folded, however, the French cut outs were rolled up. The Austria cut out,I spent months regluing the lose paint. One of my hobbies is going to WW1 museums to see early planes. from my personal experience I believe these are real. Although I can't rule out fakes. I'm going to have several of them carbon tested. As for the closing of the Menin Road Museum in Leper(Ypres) Belgium. I had heard of this museum closing, however it took me several years to final find people that were there and purchased pieces. I have several more pieces the I'm going to post and look forward to everyone's reply. Ed

[Edward]

One more reply. Looking for explanations. What if the picture taken is actually the left side of the plane and not the right side. The negative could easily be turned around, thus giving one the appearance of the other side. This is a very plausible theory. makes sense to me. Ed

[VtwinVince]

You're free to believe whatever you like, but for me, 'belief' is for church.

[John McKenzie]

[QUOTE=Edward;755686]One more reply. Looking for explanations. What if the picture taken is actually the left side of the plane and not the right side. The negative could easily be turned around, thus giving one the appearance of the other side. This is a very plausible theory. makes sense to me. Ed[/QUOTE

Sorry , but this is easily proved Not to be the case .
It would be quite obvious that if such was the case ,... then the propeller would show to be turning the WRONG way .
Also all the letters / numbers would be " mirror image "!
.

[Edward]

Reluctantly I must agree this is a very good fake, makes my wonder about the rest. Thanks to all you have contributed to this. Sometimes the truth hurts. Ed

['14-'18aviationcollector]

I'm sorry to give you bad news, I don't take any pleasure in it. I have been in the very fortunate position to have been able to examine many fabric relics which have been cut from WW1 aircraft. As is also the case with other members I have been able to determine many features seen on genuine and non genuine relics. The acquisition of knowledge is ongoing and one of the reasons I study such samples is to be able to differentiate genuine and non genuine samples. I saw many of these pieces when they were listed and they just didn't look right unfortunately. Some pieces sold for quite a lot of money, and I feel for you and others who purchased these samples.

The best advice I can give you and other members who are interested in purchasing such items is to research the subject matter as thoroughly as possible. It is a difficult task but essential if you don't want to end up spending good money on fake or non genuine samples. Even before the discussion came up here the samples from the museum, if it ever existed raised many red flags for me.

Regards,

David.

[Pedro Ramis]

For a good book on Nieuports, you have:
Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF service from Cross & Cockade International
that I highly recommend.
Pedro

[Fill]

I like the fact that David took pains to indicate he took no pleasure in casting doubt on the items . The feelings of people who are obviously engrossed in the subject need to be taken into account .

[VtwinVince]

I have handled a few fabric samples, including from the Charles Donald collection, and these are truly an awful minefield, with fakes dating way back.

[sator]

Shakey........very shakey........I urge everyone to stay away from fabric it,s all to questionable .

[Edward]

Good morning This will be my last reply to this post. I have decided to leave it up as it brings to light many views and I hope it is beneficial to others. The gentleman I purchased these from at no time made the statement that these were original. Thank goodness I didn't pay $30,000.00 for these, as some are listed on E-Bay. Truefully I have abut $3000.00 invested in these. Ok I can except that they are fakes, but really good fakes. A couple actually have bullet holes in them. I estimate that they are over 80 years old. I do believe, that they were at one time in a museum. One of my jobs during my working career, was designing and building displays and custom parts for museums thru out the world. It is not unusual for museum to fabicat displays. Its all about bringing the people into the museum. I still proudly display these in my hangar, but will not claim that they are originals. They are a true curiosity. Thanks again to all that have posted. This is way this group exist. look for more of my post in the future. ED

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Thank you very much for posting your photos. i wish we had much better news for you! Still, you didn't spend your life savings on them, and you are happy with them, which is very important. Not every non genuine fabric sample is fake. Some are constructed for display purposes as reproductions, rather than to deceive anyone. There could very well have been a museum, and these fabric samples may have been made to give visitors to the museum an idea of what WW1 aircraft fabric looks like. There was an incident during the early 1990's when I found a cross from Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker Dr.I, 425/17. I alerted the curators at the Australia War Memorial. They were very concerned, because this cross was supposed to have been in the AWM's collection! They checked, and fortunately yes it was still safe in their collection. For a while they had two crosses which were the same, and they were not sure which one was original, and which one was the copy. Fortunately, it was eventually discovered that the original cross is safe in the AWM's collection. The second cross proved to be a reproduction. It was made as a copy, not to deceive anyone but it is quite a reasonable reproduction, and was thought to have been original for some time.

Best wishes! David.