Voss victories.

[Germanophile-1]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for "hanging in there" and sharing this information with the Forum. The interesting commentary that has followed has a been a great stimulant.

Peter

[ManfredT]

"Into the Blue
Uncorrected proof copy on proofing paper and the property of the publisher.
Provisional Date 4th August 1969"

When in London, I got the copy above from an old British pilot. The book was not out then. I think it was at Beaumont's in Bath Street, but I don't remember the name of the pilot.

Macmillan's description of the Voss/McMaking encounter is disappointing at all (pg. 161-165 proof copy). Why did he not tell the truth, that McMaking was in flames?

acer

[alex_revell]

Acer
Thanks for your reply re the Voss victory on 11 Sept 1917. We now have five scources for the type shot down. Spad in the lists, New Type in JIFH, your quote from the Jasta War diary, a Camel in The Jasta War Chronology, and a Bristol Fighter in Above The Lines. I wish those authors common to the last two books would get their act together and agree with themselves! I've always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the types given in those last two books were from the German records, not conclusions arrived at by the authors. If I'm correct in that assumption then I think it misleading for the ATL authors to quote their conclusion that it was a Bristol Fighter.
Into The Blue. You ask why did M not say that McKing's Camel went down in flames. In both the 1929 and '69 edition M stated that the Camel and Triplane had both disappeared after he had recovered from his near collison with the RE8. TSTB gives that McMaking went down in flames but that must have been from a report other than Macmillan's. I don't think it was a question of telling the truth - why wouldn't he - merely that he did not see it.
I remember well Beaumont's in Bath St before they moved to Holloway Rd.
I worked nearby and was a constant visitor in my lunch hour. Dear old Jack Beaumont was a wonderful chap, much missed, and gave me lots of encouragement and help when I was researching HITEB. I'll always be grateful to him for my copies of Popular Flying, the 30s mag. He had a complete set, which I couldn't afford at 30 shillings a yearly set (12 issues). So Jack put them by for me and I bought a set when I could afford it. But then, that was Jack, generous to a fault. Happy days.

[ManfredT]

Alex-

when research German records the primary source is always the Kampfbericht (combat record) of a pilot. A short narrative is found in the Kriegstagebuch (war diary), the secondary source. Then came the weekly Kofl-Bericht (summary of an army) on place number three. At last there is the Nachrichtenblatt, a monthly record of the air chief.

Yes, Macmillan's observation was not a question of telling the truth. That's to harsh. But you understand, if I don't like his statements. I even don't like when the Germans called the French "laurig", cowardly. They were not. They only fight with more intelligence and effective, the Germans were furious about.

Beste Grüße,
acer

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by acer

Alex-

when research German records the primary source is always the Kampfbericht (combat record) of a pilot. A short narrative is found in the Kriegstagebuch (war diary), the secondary source. Then came the weekly Kofl-Bericht (summary of an army) on place number three. At last there is the Nachrichtenblatt, a monthly record of the air chief.

Yes, Macmillan's observation was not a question of telling the truth. That's to harsh. But you understand, if I don't like his statements. I even don't like when the Germans called the French "laurig", cowardly. They were not. They only fight with more intelligence and effective, the Germans were furious about.

Beste Grüße,
acer

Mates,
Alex, Acer and the rest of you talented lads out there. I am now sifting through what I have, comparing it to what you have provided and updating the lot.

When I am done, will post it so that all may see and use.

TaTa for now

tcrean7828

tom

[Graeme]

Not wishing to steal Tom’s thunder, but I think we’ve agreed on the following:

Time differences – according to The Sky Their Battlefield and other published sources:

Until 24 March 1917, German time 1 hour ahead
From 25 March to 15 April 1917, times synchronous
From 16 April to 17 September 1917, German time 1 hour ahead
From 18 September to 5 October 1917, times synchronous

Times are German time; these and locations are taken from the Jasta War Diaries, via Rick Duiven, courtesy of Taz.

Victories 1 to 28 with Jasta 2/Boelcke:

1. 27 Nov 16 Nieuport 9:45 Miraumont
Nieuport 17 A281, 60 Sqn RFC, Capt George Alec Parker DSO MC, KIA
[BUT last seen 10:40, Bapaume, 8 Km east of Miraumont]

2. 27 Nov 16 FE2b 14:15 S Bapaume
FE2b 4915, 18 Sqn RFC, Lt F A George, WIA & 1/AM O F Watts, KIA
[Took off 12:00, combat Ginchy, 10 Km south of Bapaume]
or
BE2e 7084, 9 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt James Talmage Hanning, KIA + Lt Victor Arthur Strauss, KIA, fell in flames 15:40, north of Guedecourt, 5 Km south of Bapaume; TSTB says took off 15:15 (German time) so would rule this out

3. 21 Dec 16 BE2 10:45 Miraumont
BE2d 5782, 7 Sqn RFC, Lt D W Davis, POW & 2nd Lt William Martin Vernon Cotton, KIA
[Combat 10:45, east of Beaucourt(-sur-l’Ancre), 4 Km south-west of Miraumont]

4. 1 Feb 17 DH2 17:30 Achiet le Petit-Essarts
DH2 A2614, 29 Sqn RFC, Capt A P V Daly, POW
[Took off 16:30, combat Beaumont-Hamel, 10 Km south-west of Achiet-le-Petit]

5. 4 Feb 17 BE2 15:40 S Givenchy
BE2d 5797, 16 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt H Martin-Massey, WIA & 2nd Lt Noel Mark Hodson Vernham, KIA
[16 Sqn operated from Bruay(-la-Buissière), 22 Km north-west of Givenchy-en-Gohelle]
The other BEs were BE2c 2768, 16 Sqn RFC, lost north of Berthonval Farm [6 Km south-west of Givenchy-en-Gohelle], Lt J W Boyd Wia, Dow 05-Feb-17 + 2nd Lt Alfred Harmer Steele Wia, Dow 05-Feb-17
and
BE2e 7105, 15 Sqn RFC, lost 15:05, Sgt James Frederick Shaw (Kia) + 2nd Lt George William Bathurst Bradford (Kia)
[15 Sqn operated out of Léalvillers, 45 Km south-west of Givenchy-en-Gohelle]

6. 10 Feb 17 DH2 12:25 Bucquoi-Puisieux
DH2 A2548, 32 Sqn RFC, Capt Leslie Peech Aizlewood, WIA
[32 Sqn operated from Léalvillers, 14 Km south-west of Puisieux and 17 Km south-west of Bucquoy]

7. 25 Feb 17 DH2 14:55 Le Sauveur (should this be Le Saveur, just north of Arras?)
DH2 A2557, 29 Sqn RFC, Lt R J S Lund, WIA
[Took off 13:35, combat Arras]

8. 25 Feb 17 DH2 15:00 Arras
DH2 7849, 29 Sqn RFC, Capt H J Payn, OK
As Alex has noted, Lund was the only DH2 casualty on 25 Feb 1917

9. 26 Feb 17 BE2 16:50 Ecurie-Lourie
BE2c 2535, 16 Sqn RFC, Lt H E Bagot, WIA & 2nd Lt Robert Lawrence Munro Jack, KIA
[Took off 15:15, combat Ecurie]

10. 27 Feb 17 BE2 10:45 Blaireville
BE2c 2530, 8 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Edwin Albert Pope, KIA & 2nd Lt Hubert Alfred Johnson, KIA
[Combat 10:45; no further details; 8 Sqn operated from Soncamp; cannot locate Blaireville]

11. 27 Feb 17 BE2 16:48 St Catherine, Arras
BE2e 7197, 12 Sqn RFC, Capt John H McArthur, KIA & Pvt J Whitefoot, KIA
[Took off 15:55, combat Arras]

12. 4 Mar 17 BE2 11:30 S Berneville, Combles
BE2 6252, 8 Sqn RFC, Sgt Reginald James Moody, KIA & 2nd Lt Edmund Eric Horn, KIA
[Took off 10:35, combat Berneville]

13. 6 Mar 17 DH2 16:35 Villers au Flers
DH2 7941, 32 Sqn RFC, Capt H G Southan, WIA, POW
[32 Sqn operated from Bailleul; I suspect the location of Voss’ claim is actually Villers-au-Flos, south-east of Bapaume;
The options for Bailleul are:
Bailleul-Sir-Berthoult, 8 km north-east of Arras (32 Km north of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul-aux-Cornailles, 23 Km south-west of Béthune (50 km north-west of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul-lès-Pernes, 18 Km west of Béthune (58 Km north-north-west of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul, 12 Km north-west of Armentières (75 Km north of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul, 10 km south of Abbeville (80 Km west of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul-le-Soc, 23 Km west of Compiègne (90 Km south of Villers-au-Flos)
Bailleul-sur-Thérain, 11 Km south-east of Beauvais (130 Km south-west of Villers-au-Flos)

14. 11 Mar 17 FE2 11:00 Rancourt-Combles
FE2b 7685, 22 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt L W Beal, OK & 2nd AM F G Davin, WIA
[Forced landed near Combles]

15. 11 Mar 17 Nieuport 13:40 Bailleul
Nieuport 17 A279, 60 Sqn RFC, Lt A D Whitehead, WIA, POW
[Combat 14:40, Bailleul]

16. 17 Mar 17 FE2 12:15 NE Warlencourt
FE2b 7695, 11 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt R W Cross, POW & Lt C F Lodge, POW
[Took off 09:55, combat Warlencourt]

17. 17 Mar 17 DH2 12:25 NE Warlencourt
DH2 A2583, 32 Sqn RFC, Lt T A Gooch, WIA
[Combat Bapaume, 5 Km north-east of Warlencourt-Eaucourt]

18. 18 Mar 17 BE2 18:40 Neuville
BE2d 5784, 8 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt C R Dougall, WIA, POW & 2nd Lt Sydney Harryman, KIA
[BUT lost on 19 March].
Apart from 5770 (below), the other BE2s lost were:
BE2e 5748, 8 Sqn RFC, took off 10:55, Capt C Holland (Wia) + 2nd Lt A C Heaven (Ok) – the time excludes this machine
BE2c 2755, 4 Sqn RFC, lost 14:45, 11th Corps front, 2nd Lt John Thwaytes (Kia) + 2nd Lt Gerald Hugh Temple Bourne (Kia) – not sure of the BE2’s endurance but would suspect time excludes this machine also

19. 18 Mar 17 BE2 18:50 Boyelles
BE2d 5770, 13 Sqn RFC, Capt G S Thorne, POW & 2nd Lt P E H van Baerle, POW
[Took off 18:25, combat Boyelles]

20. 19 Mar 17 RE8 9:30 St Leger
RE8 A4165, 59 Sqn RFC, Capt Eldred Wolferstan Bowyer-Bower, KIA & 2nd Lt Eric Elgey, KIA
[Patrol Saint-Léger; BUT anti-aircraft fire?]

21. 24 Mar 17 BE2 16:45 Boisleux-Boiry
BE2c 5769, 8 Sqn RFC, Lt Hugh Norton, KIA & 2nd Lt Reginald Alfred William Tillet, KIA
[Took off 15:15, combat Boyelles, 3 Km south-east of Boisleux-Saint-Marc, 5 Km south-east of Boisleux-au-Mont, 9 Km east of Boiry-Sainte-Rictude, 8 Km east of Boiry-Saint-Martin, 2 Km south of Boiry-Becquerelle]

22. 24 Mar 17 FE2 16:10 Vaulx-Morchies
FE2b A803, 11 Sqn RFC, Lt J R Middleton (Pow; Dow 21-Jun-17) + 2/AM H V Gosney (Kia) BUT took off 08:45
FE2b A5442, 11 Sqn RFC, Capt C N Lowe & 2nd Lt G Masters BUT took off 08:58; Lowe was injured in the crash near Croisilles
In all probability this was FE2b A5485, 23 Sqn RFC, Flt Sgt E P Critchley (Wia) + 1/AM F Russell (Kia), took off 14:13

23. 1 Apr 17 BE2 11:45 Ecoust, Lt Leger
BE2e 2561, 15 Sqn RFC, Capt A M Wynne, WIA & Lt Adrian Somerset Mackenzie, KIA
[Combat 11:45, Saint-Léger]

24. 6 Apr 17 BE2 9:45 S Lagnicourt, Bapaume
BE2c A3157, 15 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt A H Vinson, WIA & 2nd Lt E L C Gwilt, OK
[Combat 09:30, forced landed west of the lines, TSTB says crew uninjured]

not confirmed 6 Apr 17 Sopwith 9:45 Lagnicourt -
Pup A6165, 54 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Robert Mordaunt Foster, FTL, OK
[Combat south of Lagnicourt]

25. 7 May 17 Sopwith 19:25 Etaing by Lécluse
SE5 A4867, 56 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Roger Michael Chaworth-Musters, KIA
[Took off 18:30, patrol Arras – Cambrai – Douai; Etaing is 13 Km south-west of Douai, 16 Km east of Arras, 20 Km north-west of Cambrai]

26. 9 May 17 BE2 14:00 Havrincourt
BE2e 7209, 52 Sqn RFC, Lt Rowland Humphrey Coles, KIA & 2nd Lt John Charles Day, KIA
[Took off 11:55, combat Havrincourt]

27. 9 May 17 FE2 16:50 SW Lesdain, Le Bousquet
FE2b 4991, 22 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt C A M Furlonger, POW & 2nd Lt C W Lane, POW
[Took off 15:00, BUT combat south-west of Lesdain, some 60 Km south-east of Le Bosquet]

28. 9 May 17 Sopwith Pup 16:45 Lesdain
Pup A6174, 54 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt George C T Hadrill, WIA, POW
[Took off 15:23, combat Lesdain]

Part 2 to follow (too big to post as a single listing).

[Graeme]

Victories 29 to 34 with Jasta 5:

29. 23 May 17 FE2 14:25 Cambrai-Bapaume
FE2b A5502, 18 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Wilfred Ferguson Macdonald, KIA & Lt Frank Charles Shackell (or Shackill), KIA
[Took off 12:45; combat between Cambrai and Bapaume]

30. 26 May 17 Sopwith Pup 15:45 SW Gouzeaucourt
Pup A6168, 54 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt M B G W Cole, WIA
[Took off 14:30, combat west of Gonnelieu, 2 Km east of Gouzeaucourt]

31. 28 May 17 FE2 13:45 S Douai, Ecaillon
FE2d A6378, 25 Sqn RFC, Capt A de Selincourt, POW & Lt H Cotton, POW
[Took off 12:15, patrol Douai - St Amand – Orchies]

32. 4 Jun 17 Sopwith Pup 7:10 Aubencheul-Le Catelet
Pup B2151, 54 Sqn RFC, Capt Reginald George Hewett Pixley, KIA
[Took off 06:00, combat Le Catelet, 3 Km south-west of Aubencheul-aux-Bois]

33. 5 Jun 17 FE2 9:30 Masnières-Vaucelles
FE2b A857, 22 Sqn RFC, Capt F P Don, WIA, POW & 2nd Lt W H Harris, WIA, POW
[Combat 09:30, south-west of Lesdain; Lesdain is 4 Km north-east of Vaucelles]

34. 6 Jun 17 Nieuport 13:10 W Cambrai
Nieuport N3204, Naval 6, F/Lt Fabian Pember Reeves, KIA
[BUT took off 13:15, combat Bourlon Wood; 8 Km west of Cambrai]

Victories 35 to 48 with Jasta 10:

35. 10 Aug 17 Spad S 7 16:25 SW Klerken, Dixmuiden 13
Esc N 31, Capt H Rousseau, MIA ?

36. 15 Aug 17 FE2 19:10 Ypres-Zillebeke 16
FE2d A5152, 20 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt C H Cameron, OK & Pte S E Pilbrow, KIA
[Engine hit by anti-aircraft fire, forced to land Dickebusch, 5 Km south-west of Ypres]
The other option is FE2d A6500, 20 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt J McLean (Wia) + Gnr O A Owen (Wia; Dow), BUT combat north of Ypres; Zillebeke Lake is 2 Km south-east of Ypres

37. 16 Aug 17 Sopwith Camel 21:00 St Julien 17
Camel B3756, 70 Sqn RFC, Capt Noel William Ward Webb, KIA
[Combat 20:45, Polygon Wood, 6 Km south-east of Saint Julien]

38. 23 Aug 17 Spad S 7 10:10 SW Dixmuiden 19
Spad S7 B3528, 19 Sqn RFC, Capt Arthur Lionel Gordon-Kidd DSO, WIA, DOW 27 Aug 17
[19 Sqn operated out of Poperinghe, 25 Km south-west of Dixmuide]

39. 3 Sep 17 Sopwith Camel 9:52 Zandvoorde, N Houthem
Camel B3917, 45 Sqn RFC, Lt Aubrey Talley Heywood, KIA
Combat 10:25, north of Houthem, last seen going west over Comines, 3 Km south-east of Houthem

40. 5 Sep 17 Sopwith Pup 15:50 St Julien
Pup B1842, 46 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt C W Odell, OK
[46 Sqn operated out of Sainte-Marie-Cappel, 28 Km south-west of Ypres, Saint Julien is 6 Km north-east of Ypres]
or
DH5 A9374, 32 Sqn RFC, Lt W E Sandys (Kia), crashed into the Ypres Canal ?
[32 Sqn was operating out of Droglandt, 11 km west of Ypres. While I have no time for Sandys’ loss, the crash site is in the approximate area]

41. 5 Sep 17 Caudron 16:30 Bixschoote-Langemarck
AR 2, Esc F 33, Lt N de Camondo, KIA & S/Lt L des Essarts, KIA ?
[BUT died in Lorraine, aircraft cut in two by a collision with a German plane]
or
Caudron G.6, Esc C 53, MdL Jacques Thabaud-Deshoulieres KIA and Lt Marcel Mulard KIA ?

42. 6 Sep 17 FE2 16:35 St Julien, Boesinge
FE2d B1895, 20 Sqn RFC, Lt John Oscar Pilkington, KIA & 2/AM Herbert Frederick Matthews, KIA
[Took off 15:35, combat over Boesinghe]

43. 10 Sep 17 Sopwith Camel 17:50 Paschendaele-Langemarck
Camel B3927, 70 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Arthur Jackson Smith Sisley, KIA
[Combat 17:50, Langemarck]

44. 10 Sep 17 Sopwith Camel 17:55 Paschendaele-Langemarck
Camel B3787, 70 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Oliver Charles Pearson, KIA
[Combat 17:55, between Roulers and Staden, 11 Km north-east of Langemarck and 8 Km north-north-east of Passchendaele]

45. 10 Sep 17 Spad S 7 18:15 Paschendaele-Westroosebeke
#1746, Esc N 31, Sgt Jules Tiberghien, KIA

46. 11 Sep 17 Bristol F2b 10:30 Langemarck
F2b B1105, 22 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt R de L Stedman, WIA & 2nd Lt Harry Edward Jones, KIA
[Took off 09:00, combat Schapp Baillie, 4 Km north-east of Langemarck]

47. 11 Sep 17 Sopwith Camel 16:25 St Julien
Camel B6236, 45 Sqn RFC, Lt Oscar Lennox McMaking, KIA
[Combat 16:25, Saint-Julien]

48. 23 Sep 17 DH4 9:30 Ledeghem, S Roulers
DH4 A7643, 57 Sqn RFC, 2nd Lt Samuel Leslie John Bramley, KIA & 2nd Lt John Matthew De Lacey, KIA
[BUT combat 08:30, Roulers]

Graeme

[tcrean7828]

Mates,

Don't worry about my thunder - you all have done a great service to everyone. You just seem to be faster at it than I.

Drop me a pm, if your contribuited to this compiled list, I would like to show my acknowledgement for your assistance in my upcomming book. I.e. tcrean7828=Thomas Crean, etc.

I gather from all the response via here and PM's that you all would like to see the completion sooner than later in 2009

thanks again from all who helped, it just made my job a whole lot easier.

TaTa

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. Marry X-Mas to all and a Happy New Year. tc